East Dulwich Grove crossing - dangerous drivers!

[Lolamaxx]

Hi,

Just thought I'd put a story out there, as it's really seeming like the East Dulwich Grove/Lordship Lane crossing is getting dicier and dicier...

There's no light for pedestrians, and you have traffic potentially coming through from 4 lanes and 3 directions, so you're always taking a risk there... But I had a bad experience a few days ago where I was crossing, along with 2 other pedestrians I must add, though because I had a pram I was that little bit slower (but always rush across!). A small, grey/white lorry with a long flatbed attachment (I think with dark blue writing on, and a scaffolding company) came speeding through to make the light, turning right onto ED Grove from the Goose Green side of Lordship Lane... They'd had a red until moments before, so the other pedestrians and I thought we had time to cross two lanes. They just made it across, but the lorry came to a screeching halt in front of me, blocking my way to the pavement, and proceeded to lecture me, without making eye contact, on crossing the road, using a few choice words to describe me and how to do it. All while blocking me, keeping me from being able to get out of the way of oncoming traffic coming from other directions onto ED Grove, and blocking the intersection with the back of the lorry.

This was pretty panic-inducing stuff, as I had a baby in a pram with me, not to mention about a million times less safe than having the gall to cross a 2-lane road that's not safe for pedestrians through no fault of their own. I only wish I'd had the presence of mind to take a photo of the driver/his lorry and report him, but was obviously just thinking about whether he'd plow into me and the pram if I rushed to the right and in front of him (he seemed that unhinged), or if I'd be hit by other cars in the centre of the intersection if I rushed behind him to get out of the way.

I understand that it's a busy intersection, and that a zebra crossing would slow things down, but maybe a pedestrian light/crossing or at the very least cameras for dangerous drivers would be a deterrent. It's always a bit hairy there, especially if you're elderly/handicapped/a child or parent with children and not as speedy as others, but this was honestly another level and pretty frightening, not just for me, but I'm sure for other drivers using LL and ED Grove.

[sunbob]

I'm sorry you had a scary experience and glad you are both OK.

The traffic turning there does not have a traffic light, there is a pedestrian crossing light on lordship Lane for going straight on so don't be fooled by that.

I am personally completely anal when it comes to crossing the road, especially with children, so would always take the extra 5 minutes to walk up ED Grove to the zebra crossing.

[Countrlass22]

gosh we been having same problem was hoping new placement of zebra crossings would have helped but they just drive threw even if foot off kerb which is meant be way use them......majority do slow soon as see anyone near crossing.

[Mugglesworth]

It's hard to imagine a junction design more hostile to pedestrians. The red light is an active encouragement for traffic to speed up as it turns left from EDG or right into EDG, to avoid being cut off by traffic heading towards Goose Green. The junction box adds an urgency for vehicles to clear the junction quickly rather than give way to pedestrians. TfL and Southwark shrug and walk away, claiming nothing can be done. Far better to pepper the area with random double yellows and speed humps and ignore the evidence (CrashMap: 6 incidents at that junction in 5 years, which is more than any other junction on LL).

[Lolamaxx]

Yeah, it's no good and not working at all, really (bad urban planning!), and I'll certainly think twice about crossing there from now on... It seems extreme to have to walk an extra five minutes then backtrack again to cross a 2-lane road in a residential area, but I guess needs must, especially when you have road rage-filled builders driving around!

[PandG]

It took me and two women with pushchairs 10 minutes to cross yesterday and tentatively too - even a bus pulled right up to the junction blocking everyone's view,it's a very dangerous junction with no facilities for pedestrians to cross. Amazed that no-one has been hurt! Has James Barbour commented on this problem?

[Nigello]

I saw - and reported to 101 - a white van mount the kerb along EDG on the Goose Green side and race (35mph at least) to the junction with the park. The driver was obviously frustrated with the layout/slowness of the junction so decided to act so rashly. Would a roundabout work better?

[goosey-goosey]

I'm probably missing something but why can't they add traffic lights with a pedestrian signal at that end of East Dulwich Grove?

[Abe_froeman]

Because they would rather spend the money making it easier for people with buggies to walk around the tress in Melbourne Grove.

[Rosetta]

PandG Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It took me and two women with pushchairs 10

> minutes to cross yesterday and tentatively too -

> even a bus pulled right up to the junction

> blocking everyone's view,it's a very dangerous

> junction with no facilities for pedestrians to

> cross. Amazed that no-one has been hurt! Has James

> Barbour commented on this problem?

At least two people have been hit there, I read about it on this Forum.

[Earl Aelfheah]

It's a really dodgy junction. Weird that so many extra set's of lights were put in along LL, but this junction was not addressed.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Abe_froeman Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Because they would rather spend the money making

> it easier for people with buggies to walk around

> the tress in Melbourne Grove.

Unfortunately, the council seem to have a 'he who shouts loudest' approach to prioirtising resources.

[ilovesweetpeas]

I completely agree. Unless I am using one of the shops between the zebra crossing at the roundabout and the junction, I walk on the other side. Is there a way to petition the council for a proper crossing there? Somebody is going to get seriously injured there.

[jaywalker]

Just walked across it after a two minute wait and two false starts. Anyone not used to it or distracted is in serious trouble here as you have to look round 180 degrees for both directions on Lordship Lane and often indicator lights coming from the north are invisible in direct sunlight - not to mention coordinating that with traffic coming down the Grove itself. Add to that the design which seems to channel cars, lorries, and worst of all vans whose drivers seem disconnected from civic responsibility, turning right into the grove at ACCELERATING speed as they cut past any cars stationary for the lights when going south and you have a disaster waiting to happen. When I eventually dodged across (been jaywalking since I can remember) a mother and child were still left stranded on the other side.

I would also very much like to hear why the money spent on improving pavements in Melbourne Grove is a priority given this obvious death trap. It is worth remembering that this is a crossing for a busy PAVEMENT on a shopping high street and as it stands it is not even remotely fit for purpose. If Melbourne can get a petition for action then how do users of Lordship Lane get together on this one?

[LucyInTheRye]

Yep. I really hate crossing here. Especially with young children.

[worldwiser]

This issue has been going on for years. There's a thread from 2009 in which James Barber says he's met with council officials 'several' times:

http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?5,337808,337816#msg-337816

And then it resurfaced in 2014 after a serious accident:

http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?5,337808,337816#msg-337816

In January 2015, James Barber said he'd requested a meeting with the 'head of council service for highways' but I can't find any references as to whether this meeting took place and, if it did, what was decided.

This problem is clearly not going away. Can we finally get some momentum behind progressing a solution please? James, 7 years' council inaction is clearly unacceptable. Especially when they're blowing hundreds of thousands on overpriced North Cross Road-type 'improvements' that barely deserve the description.

[yeknomyeknom]

Totally agree. I always avoid that side of the road now. If I do cross there it takes ages and others really risk themselves running across.

[James Barber]

This has been raised before - signalling the junction of Lordship Lane with East Dulwich Grove.

Putting signals there would reduce capacity of the junction. To counter this no parking would be allowed from Goose Green to the lights outside the Coop. creting two clear lanes each way is likely to boost speeding.

This would allow two lanes of traffic required if we maintain capacity.

Why not reduce capacity and not removing parking?

Apart from the predicted increase in speeding when green, key stakeholders are TfL who operate and install all traffic lights - they wont agree capacity reduction, TfL buses who wont allow delays to buses.

We did have junction with different coloured surface and removing that at the natural crossing and the raised bump has been moved back and reduced angle. This has all contributed.

I have applied for CGS funds to improve this junction back to what we at least had before it was all round softened. SO far I've not been able to take Cllr Charlie Smith with me so nothing has happened yet.

[Abe_froeman]

None of that makes any sense.

[Elphinstone's Army]

I do not understand either this justification or the manner of its description - please elucidate. It is a treacherous corner - vehicles suddenly turn into EDG without signalling, a notoriously bad junction

[worldwiser]

A Hollywood scriptwriter would probably remark, 'Don't give me problems, give me solutions.'

Sounds to me like a load of people are finding any conceivable way to avoid solving this. Man created this junction, man can surely improve it to the point where people don't have to risk death just to cross a god damned road. Effective politicians are the ones who don't take no for an answer. Seven years of accepting no just isn't tolerable. We want this sorted, please make it happen before someone is killed.

[PeckhamRose]

You can not reduce capacity, Cllr Barber. You get it to go elsewhere. And there really is not much of elsewhere.

It is similar to pedestrianising Oxford Street to 'get rid' of all the busses.

Will they simply disappear?

[Elphinstone's Army]

No right turn from Lordship Lane? cars executing this manoeuvre delay traffic anyway.

The volume of traffic on Lordship Lane would then free flow, and pedestrians could

cross in safety, particularly buggy pushers, who are slower.

[jaywalker]

The problem with recommending solutions is that there are multiple considerations, technologies, standards and policies that have to apply. I do not think it is for us as endangered citizens to come up with the solution: that is why TFL/council have (or employ) experts. It is for us, via our elected representatives to make our feelings clear when endangered. What else are elected representatives for? They are, generally, no more transport experts than we are. It seems to me that our representatives are NOT there to say 'nothing can be done' but to say to those making decisions that a significant number of people they represent (not acting out of any particularised self-interest) say something MUST be done.

If TFL/council then say there is nothing that can be done then presumably our elected representatives will report back with their justification?

[worldwiser]

I was trying to find in the various threads if someone has made the argument against a simple zebra crossing set back a few feet across EDG. Can't find one. Is there one? I see plenty of such examples along the Kings Road and other major London thoroughfares, even with tight pavements and junctions between 2 equally busy roads.

People are going to cross this junction come what may. Given that, the issue is to allow them to cross more safely. Surely a zebra would accomplish this? If TFL have the illusion of free traffic flow down LL, this is only at the expense of pedestrian safety. Does TFL prioritise traffic flow over safety?