EDF Straw Poll on EU Referendum

[steveo]

Hope so

[Louisa]

I think considering recent tragic events, it would be wise to consider pushing the referendum date back a few extra weeks, out of respect and perhaps to bring the argument back to a more civil and courteous debate. But cancelling the referendum is entirely undemocratic, considering this Government were elected in part on a promise to hold this referendum.

Louisa.

[rendelharris]

I don't think sending out the message that a single deranged person can derail the democratic processes of the whole nation is terribly desirable, and I'm sure as a passionate defender of democracy Ms.Cox would not have wanted the vote postponed. Surely by now anyone who wants it has been bombarded with sufficient information from all sides to make up their minds?

[Blah Blah]

Also postal votes have already been cast. I think the sooner it is out of the way the better. It would only be a matter of time before the tone returned to the same divisive, extreme rhetoric we have seen. Let's get it out of the way and be done with it.

[maxxi]

Unless something extraordinary happens it looks like being too narrow a margin of victory for either side to progress without taking the opposition with them. I expect there to be long negotiations to achieve compromises - together with a recognition that compromise is not a dirty word.

[steveo]

Not quite Brexit sort of thing?

[Seabag]

An interesting article by Anthony Hilton

http://www.standard.co.uk/business/anthony-hilton-why-we-may-remain-even-if-we-vote-leave-a3272621.html

[maxxi]

steveo Wrote:

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> Not quite Brexit sort of thing?

Strange and unlikely as it sounds - yes.

[Robert Poste's Child]

I signed the petition too, and wrote to my MP.

The situation has become too unstable and emotive, and we are simply not in a position to make a considered, informed, rational decision.

Defer it, work with EU partners to sort out migration (I've yet to hear why remaining or leaving would fix this automatically), reform from within and leave - if we must - from a position of mutual strength and goodwill. If it was a good enough argument for staying in Iraq, where we had no right to be, how much more should it apply now.

And to those who want to show migrants what British looks like, arguably a good way would be to stiffen the upper lip, stay in and sort it out.

[amac]

TheArtfulDogger Wrote:

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> So, do you trust a former PM who told us there

> were weapons of mass distraction to keep us

> occupied whilst he started a war?

>

> Personally he could tell me the world is round and

> I wouldn't believe him

I draw the opposite conclusion. The Iraq war was an example of Britain not following EU countries' policies and following the US, or if you like, having its own policy. I hope I'm not alone in the debate over sovereignty when I suggest that actually British sovereignty isn't always the best thing for Britain. The Iraq war is one example, pollution controls, over fishing and many many other examples where the UK did nothing and the EU acted.

[Earl Aelfheah]

I do think that for such an important change, there should be a requirement for more than 50% of eligible voters to actively vote to leave.

[Jules-and-Boo]

and obviously - over 50% of eligible voters to actively vote to stay.

[Azira]

I see your point Jules, but not sure the logic follows in this case. That might work if we were A and the choices were B or C. We have to be something in the interim between now and deciding definitively whether to leave, and traditionally we have remained with the status quo.

[Jules-and-Boo]

taking no action is also a decision.

I would hope for a majority turn out - if voters cannot be bothered to cast their vote then by default they have made their decision - they should at least turn up and make it actively

[Seabag]

Quote from The Standard article I posted above

"The referendum next week is not binding and the result does not constitute a final irrevocable decision either way. People talk about notifying the EU of our intention to leave and then having two years to organise it, but that is not the core issue either. If we are to leave the EU, it will take a fully fledged Act of Parliament to do so. It is hard to see how a notice to quit under Article 50 could be served, given it sets that process in train without the agreement of Parliament."

[Doodlebug_Dee]

Hi,

First-time poster. Can you help?

I?ve very much enjoyed reading the comments from posters in this debate. At present I?m part of the undecided electorate regarding the EU referendum. I?ve rightly or wrongly chosen to ignore the poles at this time, as from the 70+ people I?ve been discussing/debating with, have not been approached by pollsters to contribute. I have debated with my peers et al, endeavoured to research, follow the financial markets as much as possible to make an informed decision as to which way to vote, as this vote will have an impact that shapes my fellow wo(man) for generations to come.

I found this link (if you have an hour to spare)

crowd funded for the Leave campaign and am very much interested in your thoughts.

ALSO,

Reading comments to articles in the media ? this from The Independent?

Think the EU is good for Britain? Read this...

? Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.

? Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.

? Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.

? Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.

? British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.

? Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.

? Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.

? M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.

? Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.

? Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.

? Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.

? Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.

? Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.

? Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.

? ICI integration into Holland?s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs.

? Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of ?80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.

? JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with ?20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down, leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.

? UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.

? Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.

? Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.

? The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.

? Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.

? 39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU.

? The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK.

? The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.

Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing?

Okay?

Considering a lot of the British infrastructure has been sold off to foreign investors, what if there is a Leave vote; what impact do you think this will have on those services in the UK?

Do you think this is all part of the vociferous scaremongering tactics that are being used on both sides, ?little-island? thinking or are there any elements of truth that need to be recognised and actioned upon?

As mentioned, I?m concerned of the impact my vote has on my community and on the future of generations to come, here and globally.

My background: 40, female, black, born in East London, living in East Dulwich for 10+ years

Help? and thanks.

DD

[numbers]

interrupts thread/

shame on you for missing 100 on yer own thread medic!! (meanwhile, quids, LM & maxi are losing their touch?)

/as you were

[Alan Medic]

My view for what it's worth is that neither side actually know what the long term outcome for this country will be. Why I will vote to remain is because we are children of the world, not the UK. The EU may need reforming but better to try and do that than isolate the country from our fellow human beings. It's simplistic, but I don't believe politicians for the most part. Maybe we would all like to be better off, but have a look around and see how much better off we are already than most people in the world. It's a small planet. We don't own it, we are visitors.

Meanwhile the debate will continue. If the politicians we listen to really knew the future, there would never be a change in government. We vote them in and invariably they fail and we vote them out.

[Blah Blah]

Hi Doodlebug. That list was posted elsewhere and it was pointed out that membership of the EU would not and does not stop corporations moving to where labour is cheapest. Any EU country can apply for grants to attract business to itself. The UK has done the same.

I can't tell you how to vote, that is for to decide. There are many like you who are left bewildered by the various campaigns. There is no perfect option in leave or remain. Both results have pros and cons.

I based my decision to remain on not wanting to damage UK business (and therefore the economy)(and the leave campaigners acknowledge there will be at least short term contraction). I also want employment protections to stay, and want a relationship of unity with Europe. Do things have to change? The EU is bogged down by its own bureaucracy and over regulation. I think we can play a part in reforming that.

Leave campaigners argue that long term we are better off out, but we have no way of knowing that for sure. I have especially been put off by the leave campaign by the people who are fronting it and the admission that they would do away with some of the EU employment protections (but they won't say which). That is number 3 on their hit list. Number 2 is doing away with regulations put in place to regulate banking after 2008. What the leave camapigners want, is an economy even more beholden to private business than it currently is, where ordinary workers have less security and protections than ever. I also think we should be looking to our own governments for blame on many things the leave campaign is trying to blame the EU for. But those are just my thoughts.

[rendelharris]

Hi Doodlebug,

The thing is that international corporations will still be able to move to Europe and take advantage of EU grants and there's nothing, in or out, that we can do to stop them. The difference, if we're out, is that there won't be any EU grants in this country to persuade them to stay. Moving to Europe will become more attractive if we leave, both as there won't be any EU grants for business and also as we will cease to benefit from single market free trade with Europe, so anything built here would be subject to import taxes. Just as one example of this, Nissan have said that if we leave they will have to consider closing their Sunderland plant, as the taxes Europe would impose on car imports from Britain (currently zero) would have a serious impact.

Cheers,

Rendel

[Doodlebug_Dee]

Hi,

Thank you Alan Medic, Blah Blah and rendelharris for your responses. Your responses reflect my globalised view on this debate.

I posted in reaction to the video link and the messages from the Leave campaign. The rhetoric expressed from both sides seems to have transformed this debate to either, ?a two-fingered salute to Politicians - the establishment, big business and white-collar corruption? OR ?continuing to have a seat at the table to reform/transform the EU for the greater good?.

My heart sank as I watched QT with David Cameron ? describing the electorate as ?confused? and ?baffled? by this debate. His views I thought played into the hands of the Leave campaign; his performance confused and baffled me!

The polls have apparently now aligned with the Remain campaign and that has been reflected in the markets this morning.

This is to be a very interesting few days/weeks/years ahead politically.

Thanks again.

DD

[LondonMix]

I didn't see question time but I do think the electorate are being bamboozled and many are naturally baffled and confused. Whether he should have said that though is a totally different question!

[Azira]

Hi Doodlebug

As you would have seen from my previous posts, I agree with Alan Medic that we don't really know either way what the long term impact is. We can say with some certainty what the short term economic impact of leaving will be though.

If you would like to be bored to tears with a primer on EU financial regulation and why we can be so sure, feel free to PM me and I can give you some more detail.

People in the area I work in - including those like me that are probably pro-leave at heart - are already investigating moving to Ireland or Frankfurt in the event of a Brexit vote because of their concerns that we'll face another massive recession.

[Blah Blah]

I think that is the problem with Cameron LondonM. If he deviates from his script, he ends up offending and patronising. This is well reported about him.

I do think there were glimmers of clarity we have not seen from this debate til now though. The point he made about Turkey needing to satisfy 35 qualifications for entry to the EU and having to date only satisfied 1 is exactly what remain needs to get accross in challenging Gove and Boris.

[robbin]

Azira Wrote:

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> Heh @ the comment about ignorance (particularly

> from someone who doesn't appear to know the basics

> of the EU insolvency and recovery regime). I

> think you mean "central banks" dearie.

>

> You are quite right that the BRRD affects credit

> institutions, but, as you'd used the incorrect

> terminology, it was unclear what you were talking

> about. And you also don't appear to understand

> how BRRD works. Bail-in converts lower ranking

> tiers of debt into equity, so hardly the person on

> the street.

>

> Before you start being rude about someone's

> alleged lack of knowledge on a topic, you may want

> to make sure you're using the correct terms.

>

With the greatest of respect, I think unless someone were choosing to be purposely obtuse it should be obvious what I meant by 'national' banks as opposed to 'high street' banks. I'm afraid in my field, when we talk about 'national' banks in this context, all the financial and regulatory lawyers around the table know what we are talking about.

Internationally, "national bank" is synonymous with "central bank," or a bank controlled by the national government of a country. Central banks set monetary policies within national economies. By the way that's a quote from Investopedia, but really, I think if that's your best point then there's not much more I want to add, as I don't really feel the need to justify using that well known term!

You will notice I haven't referred to you as "dearie" on that point. In that regard, while complaining about the condescension of others I note your attempt to be patronising by using that term. That's fine - I have a thicker skin than you appear to, but you'd do well to choose a better point by which to do so, I think.

As for how the BRRD works, well, it doesn't apply to central banks, so I think the debate on BRRD must end there mustn't it?

It's clear I didn't choose my words well and upset you by referring to your knowledge and so I apologise for that. I just thought that the reference to the BRRD (which has no application to the situation we were talking about - i.e. of a state defaulting) indicated only a limited level of knowledge. I should have been more diplomatic.

I wouldn't panic if I were you, in the (unlikely) event there is a 'Leave' majority vote this week. The sky won't fall in. Longer term we will also be able to enter into free trade agreements with huge markets like India and China, which we are barred from doing individually as part of the EU (the EU talks opened with India in relation to their massive economy in 2007, but still no great progress!). Australia is another Commonwealth country we have always had close ties with (as with India) but which we are barred from having our own free trade deal with as part of the EU.

There will be plenty of economic opportunities far exceeding those in the EU (in regard to which, after all, we are net importers, not net exporters). It would be a shame if because of scaremongering from people who cannot be trusted (eg Dodgy Dave), or people with vested interests, you took a short term view and left to move abroad to some EU country. Go for the sunshine by all means, or the food, but not for the wrong/short term reasons!