New speed cameras trap Southwark motorists from space

[Loz]

Good lord - life's too short to go trawling through the EDF archives. That comment was made based on my memory of your postings.

But if others were to post and say that they didn't you had a strong posting record in this department, I'll retract. How's that?

[HAL9000]

As the OP I thought I'd explain my objection to more CCTV surveillance systems on our roads - this is how it affects me:

I often pick up and drop off a disabled passenger with a blue badge on display. Over the last couple of years I've received over a dozen parking fines via CCTV surveillance because the operators cannot see the blue badge.

The time and effort required to make the necessary representations, witness statements, statutory declarations, appeals, reviews, etc., etc. has filled an archive box with paperwork at a cost of over 100 man hours and ?100 in recorded postal and Commissioner for Oaths fees on my part ? I can?t even guess what it has cost the Local Authorities - a hell of a lot more.

Every one of those parking fines was cancelled, eventually - some took two years to wend their way through the system.

From my point of view, this farcical situation is a complete and utter waste of time and resources.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Ah yes - life and the length thereof. Too short to back anything up nut long enough to throw accusations around and put the onus on others to defend the accused. And yet you did so based on "fact and logic" premise.

Anyway - back on topic. the solution Hal is worried about is in no way any worse than the myriad other ways we VOLUNTARILY give up our location every day surely?

[SeanMacGabhann]

Interesting post Hal

On legal grounds it sounds like anyone parking on disable spaces can be guaranteed a fine even tho they have the necessary clearance - can't this be raised with the people providing the spaces?

[HAL9000]

The problem I've highlighted concerns picking up and setting down a blue badge passenger at places like bus stops, train stations or along major routes. We've not had any problems regarding disabled parking spaces per se.

[nashoi]

  Quote

The 'from space' bit sounds like marketing bumpf.

The company website doesn't mention satellites and I was under the impression the smallest pixel size available to civilian satellites is about 20-30cm, I don't think we'll be getting parking tickets from space anytime soon.

Hal9000, sounds bizarrely complicated, unfortunately I'm all too familiar with the problem of being guilty until proven innocent when it comes to parking, but isn't it a case of ticking the box "Offence did not occur" then providing a copy of the Blue Badge?

[firstchoicegary]

do the in car radar speed camera detectors not work against it??

[Ladymuck]

HAL9000, presumably you have seen this. It is crystal clear: Blue Badge passengers are entitled to various concessions as regards setting down etc. I don't understand why you are having so many problems.

[HAL9000]

nashoi Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The company website doesn't mention satellites ...

Apparently, the reference to 'satellites' translates to some sort of GPS functionality.

> ... isn't it a case of

> ticking the box "Offence did not occur" then

> providing a copy of the Blue Badge?

In theory, yes. In practice, cancellation is at the Local Authority's discretion, especially when the passenger had to be escorted to or from the vehicle. It usually comes down to how long they think is reasonable: 3, 5, or 10 minutes - there are no firm guidelines, as far as I can see.

Local postal strikes and delays have also exacerbated the processing of some notices in my case.

[Ladymuck]

HAL9000 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The problem I've highlighted concerns picking up

> and setting down a blue badge passenger at places

> like bus stops, train stations or along major

> routes.

I know you've said that you've had tickets cancelled in the past. However, I am wondering if any of the pick-ups/set-downs have been e.g. along red routes? This is what is stated on the DoT's website:

A vehicle displaying a Blue Badge may stop on

single or double red lines, but only to pick up or

set down the badge holder.

You are not allowed to pick up or set down

Blue Badge holders at bus stops on red routes

where there is also a wide white line.

Parking on red routes is only allowed, if at all,

at spaces specifically reserved for Blue Badge

holders. You must always check the signs to

see what concessions are available.

Also see pages 20 - 24 of this (Places where you cannot park).

I realise that you have probably researched much of this already yourself...but just in case...

Also, where are you having the problems? Are you talking about Southwark specifically? I only ask, because different boroughs have different rules.

Can the Blue Badge Advice Line not assist you? (0161 367 0009 or 0207 944 2914 or email blue.badge@dft.gsi.gov.uk).

[HAL9000]

Ladymuck Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> where are you having the problems?

Thank you for your concern. I don't have any problems (at the moment, anyway) - all my tickets have been cancelled.

I've cited this particular experience as one of many reasons why I object to the unfettered proliferation of CCTV-based, revenue-generating surveillance systems, which I perceive as an erosion of Civil Liberties.

[woofmarkthedog]

Ohhhh..

What's not to like about them, they look so cutey-woos in their little uniforms

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/00998/parking-wardens_998324c.jpg

I did manage to wake one up on Bellenden Road last week, he was having a little "Boo boo nap" in his "ickle" car

So I crept up all quietly...on tip toes

"BOO.......WAKEY WAKEY"

I said in very loud "Daddy voice" through the window as I banged it hard as I could (& I rocked his car)

Oh he was VERY happy, he even waved out the window ( after he banged his head )

His friend with him laughed too

"Now that's a good boy" I thought

W**F (tu)

[Ladymuck]

woofmarkthedog Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I did manage to wake one up on Bellenden Road last

> week, he was having a little "Boo boo nap" in his

> "ickle" car

Was he legally parked?

[woofmarkthedog]

No....

Snoozing whilst parked on a single yellow line for about half an hour

Still I may have saved him a ticket

Which was nice

W**F

[Ladymuck]

You fool! You should have taken a photo of them sleeping on the job whilst illegally parked...such material being potentially priceless should you, in the future, find yourself in contravention of parking regulations yourself my dear Willy-Woofy...

...such an ugly word blackmail isn't it?

[woofmarkthedog]

No....

The "boo" was sooooooo much better

Anyway I'm back on two wheels mostly, though I have photographed them Parking magpies before

Oooooo the rage of some could roast chesnuts

Have I said "Willy" yet today ?

OK....

"WILLY"

W**F

[Huguenot]

I can't quite put my finger on what HAL9000's getting at.

He seems to object to the 'surveillance' (a deliberately military term) in this case because it's made work for him refuting allegations, i.e. because occasionally the surveillance gets it wrong.

However, there's only two alternatives: either more traffic wardens (that people hate, also make mistakes, and are very expensive) or no enforcement of traffic regulations.

I can't believe that HAL9000's advocating the former, so he must be advocating that latter. If you're not going to enforce, then there's no point in having the regulations.

So is HAL9000 suggesting that there should be no regulation at all, that regulation should be optional based on the driver's opinion of their need, or just no regulation for him? ;-)

[Ladymuck]

Huguenot Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> So is HAL9000 suggesting that there should be no

> regulation at all, that regulation should be

> optional based on the driver's opinion of their

> need, or just no regulation for him? ;-)

Ah, you are in full swing Huguenot.

I don't think HAL9000 is suggesting anything of the kind (and, to be frank, I do not believe you do either). As I understand the situation, (though the computer will probably come along soon and tell me I've completely miscontrued) he is merely expressing his concern over this apparent expansion of monitoring of driver behaviour when, as he points out, "we already have "more CCTV surveillance cameras per capita than any other country in the world". He is also (again, as I see it) by exclaiming "Isn't this going too far!", simply encouraging debate on the matter.

So, never mind the winky-smiley-thingamigib at the end there, just put away that enormous wooden spoon of yours (yes I can see it).

(Note: fisk free post - special effort, just for you Huguenot!)

[Huguenot]

Well that's all true Ladymuck, but he does cite his issues with traffic cameras as stemming from his wasted time defending inappropriate penalties.

I just felt this particular argument against traffic cams didn't stand up.

[RosieH]

Huguenot, do any arguments with traffic cameras stack up?

List of dislikes today: people who break parking / speeding / no entry / jumping red light regulations then bitch that the government / council / the man is just out to screw money out of motorists (NB - I know that's not what HAL was saying); cats; the so-called lancashire hotpot from the canteen.

All this and it's not yet 1pm.

[HAL9000]

Huguenot Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> So is HAL9000 suggesting that there should be no

> regulation at all, that regulation should be

> optional based on the driver's opinion of their

> need, or just no regulation for him? ;-)

HAL asked (paraphrasing): do we really need a new, GPS-based, speed-averaging surveillance camera network in Southwark?

HAL thinks: we have enough surveillance systems already - we don't need another one (cites personal example).

Some forumites agree, others don't. And there's Huguenot with his wooden spoon :)

[ianr]

HAL9000 Wrote:

> HAL asked (paraphrasing): do we really need a new, GPS-based, speed-averaging surveillance camera network in Southwark?

We don't have one. It's being trialled for HO approval, and then it'll be up to any relevant authorities whether they want to use it for any particular purpose in any particular location. Those decisions will presumably be based on criteria such as usefulness, cost and efficiency. You probably owned a computer ten years ago. Did you really need a newer one?

The memorandum from PIPS Technology on which the news reports are based (there's also one in yesterday's Southwark News, http://www.southwarknews.co.uk/00,news,19201,185,00.htm) can be found in a House of Commons Transport Committee report, dated 30 March. It's at page Ev 73 of the PDF version downloadable from http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm/cmtran.htm#reports.

The camera unit seems to be the one already used for London congestion charging, with a GPS receiver added.

[RosieH]

First LM, now HAL - does everyone want to spoon with Huguenot?

[brum]

Hi ho Huguenot

Step in from the cold

Sit by the fire, Huguenot

Tell your stories untold.

[legalbeagle]

RosieH Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> First LM, now HAL - does everyone want to spoon

> with Huguenot?

No.

;-)