The TV Debate

[Mick Mac]

No but that particular policy is aimed at london and the financial sector.

[katie1997]

Oh was it? - OK, thanks for pointing it out in that case.

Cheers, k.

[jimmy two times]

Gordon Brown was the only one who looked statesmanlike and had gravitas. The other two do not look like men who have the character or sufficient experience of life to lead a country.

I hope people don't have short memories and forget what the Tories did to this country when they were in power.

[Huguenot]

"Cameron loses credibility for me on the use of the word "waste" time and time again - what he is referring to is public sector salaries and real people's jobs."

Totally agree Mick Mac. I though 'Dave' came across as a bullshitter. Also agree with your views on Clegg: it's easy to perform when there's no pressure and you're unlikely to be held to account.

Having said that, I thought Marmora Man's views were very sound. It's about who spends the 6 billion and where, not about it disappearing.

My view is that it's currently more likely to be sucked up in grand finance if it's in private hands, and more likely to keep people in work if it's in the public purse. That's only that particular 6 billion, and only at the current time BTW, not a generic view of tax and spend.

[????]

Of course Clegg's in the 'easiest' position but he can't do anything about that other than use it AND he was the most convincing in terms of delivery and presentation. As for style and no substance, the Liberal Democrats:

- uniquely voted against the Iraq war

- proportionately had by far the least MPs censured for expenses

- manifesto uniquely does have some actual numbers in it on their spending plans. Looks like substance over style to me.

Brown's gravitas! I think people are confusing his chippy inarticulacy and barely contained unpleasantness with something else. He's an old school, dour socialist IMO.

Cameron looked a man of no substance to me.

[Huguenot]

Damn it, I think I'm going to vote Lib Dem. I probably shouldn't be voting from afar, but hell, I'm allowed to!

Crikey, Lib Dem, who would have thunk it. I bet Mockers always voted lib Dem ;-)

[SeanMacGabhann]

The frustrating thing for lib dems is that if all the people who wanted to vote for them actuall did, they would stand a chance. But because most people vote tactically (or my understanding is they do ? I do) the always get squeezed

I agree with quids that Clegg was the most comfortable and handled himself the best ? but I took against the man almost from the outset. Pointing the finger at the other two and holding his nose and saying ?we?re not like them? is a) unlikely to be true and b) childishly obvious

[Jeremy]

I have always been a Lib Dem supporter (at least, I thought they were the lesser of 3 evils), but unfortunately there's no way I can vote for a party who are proposing a 2.5k cap on city bonuses. So... Labour I guess...

[????]

Sean..and I thought I was the political 'there all the same' cynic! I dunno their stance on the war in Iraq and their record on expenses and a commitment to voting reform ARE different and in contrast to Labour and the Tories.

[Huguenot]

Agreed with most of that, but I do think that the last two [of Sean's] points aren't necessarily killers.

I'd like to see Lib Dems doing an Obama: a concerted grass roots campaign aimed at the under thirties.

I work in the online industry and met with the chap who ran the Democrats online campaign. I'm really struck that none of the major parties are grabbing hold of the learnings.

For the Tories and Labour it's understandable that they would see youth as a threat to entrenched support, but for the Lib Dems? Those votes are theirs for the taking - engaged and 'worthy' twenty somethings driving local voters to the polls with online support could make this election for them.

The UK is, like, so tired.

[MitchK]

There's two more debates to go, so plenty of time to make up your minds. Now most people have heard of Nick Clegg, he might not find it so easy next time.

Also, bear in mind that in Dulwich and West Norwood, the Lib Dems have no chance of winning. So if you want to get rid of Gordon Brown, you'd be better off voting Tory.

[SeanMacGabhann]

And they are admirable positions to hold quids - I just wished I believed they would continue to hold them if they gained power - I know.. cynical me!

Jeremy- there are many reasons to balance and weigh up who to vote for - that bonus cap is hardly the most pressing issue of the day (notwithstanding the ongoing threats of the rich bankers - who benefited from govt policies - to leave the country)

Why can't well-off people never say "fair play, it was a good run while it lasted?" - Why is it always "threatening to leave the country"?

[????]

Jeremy - I do think the cap is bit of electioneering and I'm a bit uncomfortable with it. However, it's not a complete scrap its just on cash bonuses, bonuses related around share options etc WOULD create a more long term mindset and commitment towards sustainable less risky behaviour by bankers. Nevertheless the cap should be far higher.

[????]

MitchK Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> There's two more debates to go, so plenty of time

> to make up your minds. Now most people have heard

> of Nick Clegg, he might not find it so easy next

> time.

>

> Also, bear in mind that in Dulwich and West

> Norwood, the Lib Dems have no chance of winning.

> So if you want to get rid of Gordon Brown, you'd

> be better off voting Tory.

Well the Liberal Democrats came 2nd last time.....

[Huguenot]

More specifically...

It only takes less than ten percent of voters to move to Lib Dem, and they're in. Or, alternatively since turnout was less than 60%, a much smaller swing of existing voters, and a new gang of twenty-somethings.

Swing required : 9.88%

The 2005 general election:

Tessa Jowell, Labour 19,059 45.4%

Jonathan Mitchell, Liberal Democrat 10,252 24.4%

Kim Humphreys, Conservative 9,200 21.9%

Jenny Jones, Green Party 2,741 6.5%

Ralph Atkinson, UK Independence Party 290 0.7%

David Heather, Veritas 241 0.6%

Amanda Rose, Socialist Labour 149 0.4%

Judy Weleminsky, Fit Party For Integrity And Trust 57 0.1%

If you want to vote Lib Dem, then vote Lib Dem, They'd be in.

The only problem is that Mitchell doesn't seem to be showing his nose at the moment.

[Jeremy]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Jeremy- there are many reasons to balance and

> weigh up who to vote for - that bonus cap is

> hardly the most pressing issue of the day

Of course there are lots of issues to weigh up... but for me, that one is a deal breaker.

Not just on a personal level, but on a fundamental level - I don't agree with that level of govt interference in industry. It is also a dangerous game to play with a large wedge of the country's income.

There are more effective ways for reducing risk and safeguarding the industry than a crude cap on bonuses, but I guess they think it taps into public sentiment.

[Brendan]

Jeremy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Not just on a personal level, but on a fundamental

> level - I don't agree with that level of govt

> interference in industry. It is also a dangerous

> game to play with a large wedge of the country's

> income.

That?s a sticky point. There is a difference between heavy handed state control of industry (we really aren't going the way of Soviet Russia despite what anyone tries to say) and industry obeying the laws that are there to protect society from dangerous behaviour.

This shit bleated out by the financial sector about ?government interference? trying to stop it behaving irresponsibly is like someone who has been caught doing 200mph down the motorway sitting in the dock and arguing that the government is interfering in his life, his car can do 200mph and so he should be allowed to do so.

[matthew123]

IMO Gordon Brown was the winner - with Cameron the big loser. Cameron looked out of his depth and outflanked on both sides. How the Tories must wish they had Boris Johnson up on the podium not Cameron.

Clegg did very well - but I thought much of that was from scoring cheap points, plus Cameron and Brown aimed their fire at each other although that may change a little next week to pour cold water on the Lib Dems.

[Brendan]

The Lid Dems* have good ideas but don?t have enough supporters therefore I won?t support them.

If that is a valid argument in most people?s wee ?eads then they bloody well deserve whatever crap devious government they end up with.

*In this instance but it could be any reasonable voice otherwise sidelined by money and power taking advantage of a weakness in the status quo to make itself heard.

[Jeremy]

Hmmm... it's not quite the same thing. I don't for a second advocate a laissez-faire economy, we obviously need sensible regulation and intervention. But it needs to be appropriate, and in this case it really needs to be coordinated with other major financial centres. Legislation also needs to come from a body which understands the industry, not from an election campaign "brainstorming" session.

To take the car analogy further... wouldn't a better solution be to put a speed limiter on all cars sold in this country, rather than to fine offenders? Similarly, there are measures which could be put in at a lower level in the financial industry, but instead we focus on cruder, simpler measures which the public will understand.

Anyway, I will step aside as we have gone off topic...

[Brendan]

Yeah but cars are far more interesting than politics.

[Brendan]

Arguably if one could trust people not to drive like arseholes you wouldn?t need a speed limit and if someone wanted to welly it up the M1 once in a while when the conditions were reasonable and safe it wouldn?t be a problem.

[Keef]

I thought Brown sounded the most intellectually able of the 3 of them, Clegg was pretty good, and Cameron was pleasingly rubbish.

I don't really like Clegg, but I think I shall vote Lib Dem. I believe that this time, that vote will do something.

Question time on BBC2 afterwards was awful, especially the word chart bit!

[matthew123]

I watched the ITV debate, with David Blunkett responding to Alex Salmond boast of putting 1,000 Police on the streets in Scotland..

"When I was Home Secretary I put 15,000 new Police on street.." - quickly followed by his KitKat joke

"David Cameron reminds me of the boy who once asked me when I was 14 yrs old if I wanted a KitKat, I said Yes, and he said there is a shop down the road where I could get one"

[Brendan]

It may be a joke but it is worryingly close to most tory?s attitude towards anyone who earns less than ?50 a year.