Trains cancellations - latest

[RichJ]

The point about refund vs cancellation raises a question I have always wanted to ask but never got round to. In circumstances where you tap into a station using PAYG or contactless and then very quickly realise that your train is either cancelled or delayed such that you need to use alternative transport, if you then tap out again, is the system sophisticated to work out that you must not have actually made the journey and then refund you? Would seem logical that if you tap in and out of the same station within say 15 minutes of each other, then it almost impossible for you to have made a journey.

[Penguin68]

If you buy a ticket and plan around it, then the train company should liable for your losses as a result of any cancellations. Not just the pro-rata cost of a season ticket. If you need to get a cab, in order to make an appointment, then they should pick up the cost.

This is what is called 'consequential loss' and many (most?) enterprises aim to protect themselves from such claims by limiting their liability to direct loss only.

[rendelharris]

RichJ Wrote:

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> The point about refund vs cancellation raises a

> question I have always wanted to ask but never got

> round to. In circumstances where you tap into a

> station using PAYG or contactless and then very

> quickly realise that your train is either

> cancelled or delayed such that you need to use

> alternative transport, if you then tap out again,

> is the system sophisticated to work out that you

> must not have actually made the journey and then

> refund you? Would seem logical that if you tap in

> and out of the same station within say 15 minutes

> of each other, then it almost impossible for you

> to have made a journey.

Well, I can't quite believe what I've just read! I assumed the card reader wouldn't charge one in such circumstances, but on the TfL website it says:

A same station exit is recorded when you touch your Oyster card on a yellow reader when you enter a station, but then touch out to exit at the same station within a set time. This can happen when you change your journey plan, for example, because of service disruption. If you touch in and out at the same station without making a journey, the following charges apply:

Between 0 and 2 minutes: a maximum pay as you go fare of up to ?8.80. If, having touched in and out within two minutes, you then re-enter the same or a different station within 45 minutes, the maximum pay as you go fare will be refunded and a new journey started. This does not apply if you touched out on a yellow card reader that is not on a ticket gate or take a bus or tram before re-entering

Between 2 and 30 minutes: the minimum pay as you go fare from that station

More than 30 minutes: the system will assume that two separate journeys have been made. However, they will both be incomplete, so you will be charged two maximum pay as you go fares of up to ?8.80

So basically, whatever you do you'll get charged! When meeting Mrs.H at Denmark Hill I've often gone down to the platform to help with her bags and used my Oyster to touch in and out again so I don't get accused of fare evasion on the way back, I'm wondering how often I've been stung for the maximum fare now!

[Lazero]

It is annoying, and not very smart of the system - but if you register your Oyster card online you can very easily apply for a refund at https://oyster.tfl.gov.uk. TfL are fairly quick to give you the money back when it is obvious you left the station due to cancelled trains. You just have to remember to do it, unfortunately. I'm not sure if you can ask at the station for an immediate refund.

[JohnL]

Cardelia Wrote:

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> P.O.U.S.theWonderCat Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > A con does involve a deception. Southern

> continue

> > to hold up the compensation as a method of

> > accountability, but when the rules mean that a

> > large chunk of their customer base are disauded

> > from applying for compensation owing to, inter

> > alia, the circumnstances I described above,

> that

> > representation is misleading and therefore

> > deceptive.

>

> You're still not getting it. It's not a question

> of dissuasion. If a passenger doesn't take a train

> journey they're simply ineligible for delay

> compensation. Passengers have to take the train

> journey and suffer the delay. I understand your

> point that commuters would rather get home quicker

> than be deliberately delayed and claim

> compensation - I'm in exactly that situation

> myself - but that still doesn't make the

> compensation scheme a con.

>

> > And thank you for going to the trouble of

> bolding

> > the words "train journeys" but in doing so you

> are

> > demonstrating that you misunderstood my point.

> I

> > have paid for a train ticket. Thanks to

> > Southern's poor service, I can only get

> > compensation for the ticket I have paid for if

> I'm

> > prepared to wait risk waiting more than 2 hours

> to

> > get home. I am being put into a position where

> the

> > diminishing odds of my trains running at all

> mean

> > I have to suffer the loss of the train fare if

> I

> > want some certainty of getting home within 4

> times

> > the usual commute.

>

> I haven't misunderstood your point at all. You may

> have paid for a train ticket but you haven't taken

> a train journey. If you want your money back for

> an unused train ticket then you need to ask for a

> refund, not delay compensation. It's no wonder

> you're seeing the delay compensation scheme as a

> con if you want it to do something it's not

> designed to do.

>

> > I am not suggesting that any company does or

> > should offer compensation for a service that I

> > have not chosen to pay for, so please use take

> > your straw man elsewhere.

>

> Interestingly (or not, depending on your point of

> view), revenue allocation for London transport is

> not as straightforward as "I take a Southern train

> therefore I pay Southern for my ticket". You're

> not directly paying Southern to use their service.

> Instead you're paying for a permit to travel which

> covers Southern, Southeastern, Thameslink, LOROL

> etc., not to mention TfL and the various London

> bus companies if you have a travelcard. Revenue is

> allocated centrally at a later date. So if you're

> not directly paying Southern for their services,

> and you're choosing to not use Southern services,

> why should Southern be paying you compensation?

To be honest it doesn't matter what the rules are as

The Customer is Always Right

That's why the Govia franchise is a dead duck.

[srisky]

The original timetable is on the national rail site from

Sept 5 - anyone know whether this is a definite (as much as it can be) or just because it hasn't been updated to reflect the revised one? Thanks

[Jeremy]

srisky - it's the latter.

[d.b]

I don't think we'll get a train service back until Govia lose the franchise. They clearly hate our line, always been the first to be cancelled, probably bring the stats down badly due to all the signal/junction problems and station works at London Bridge. I doubt we're very profitable for them, the government "temporary" dispensation to cancel services is looking quite permanent now.

[Gilloc]

It's an absolute farce and nothing is being done about it

[Lowlander]

The 0830 yesterday was formed of 4 coaches instead of the usual 8 and was rammed. Many couldn't board at East Dulwich, next train 0915.

When is this going to end? I feel for those who work in London Bridge or the City, especially with nursery/school pick-ups.

[MarkE]

Lowlander Wrote:

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> The 0830 yesterday was formed of 4 coaches instead

> of the usual 8 and was rammed. Many couldn't

> board at East Dulwich, next train 0915.

>

> When is this going to end? I feel for those who

> work in London Bridge or the City, especially with

> nursery/school pick-ups.

I was one of those who couldn't board at 8:30. Previous train at 7:30, then the 8:30 rocks up only half-length. I'd noticed this on the signage and tactically stood in the front half of the platform, but it was already rammed, probably leaving some stranded at North Dulwich too.

Walked up to Denmark Hill and got in to Blackfriars instead. For the priviledge of entering and exiting the same station, I also got charged ?2 to my Oyster Card, which I then have to chase for a refund. Had I taken the bus up Dog Kennel Hill, that'd have been another ?1.60, too.

The ridiculousness of this situation is that there's no accountability and feels like we have next to no recourse.

[KidKruger]

that's it MarkE, no accountability, no obligation, no recourse, no service, no consideration for the fare-paying/tax paying passenger, no reduction in bonus for the execs.

[srisky]

Thanks, I thought it might be the latter. The Southern website states the temp timetable has been issued until Sept 2nd but does not state what will happen after - makes it impossible for me to make plans for the school run.

[JW]

Five letters in the post today and ?16.80 worth of vouchers. I'm claiming for the 07.50 and 18.30 everyday for the duration of the reduced timetable and strike. It's a pain but I'd rather have the cash in my pocket than theirs. Now at which pub should I spend it?!

[Gilloc]

JW Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Five letters in the post today and ?16.80 worth of

> vouchers. I'm claiming for the 07.50 and 18.30

> everyday for the duration of the reduced timetable

> and strike. It's a pain but I'd rather have the

> cash in my pocket than theirs. Now at which pub

> should I spend it?!

How long was that for?

[JW]

Gilloc Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> JW Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Five letters in the post today and ?16.80 worth

> of

> > vouchers. I'm claiming for the 07.50 and 18.30

> > everyday for the duration of the reduced

> timetable

> > and strike. It's a pain but I'd rather have the

> > cash in my pocket than theirs. Now at which pub

> > should I spend it?!

>

> How long was that for?

Not sure I understand the question, sorry! It was for 11-18.07.16, two claims a day for 5 days and one day I claimed for three cancellations. I have an annual ticket so I only get ?1.40 per journey.

Is that what you were asking?

[dirac]

JW Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Five letters in the post today and ?16.80 worth of

> vouchers. I'm claiming for the 07.50 and 18.30

> everyday for the duration of the reduced timetable

> and strike. It's a pain but I'd rather have the

> cash in my pocket than theirs. Now at which pub

> should I spend it?!

Well done! That's a great effort and pleases me to see someone being a thorn in their foot so to speak.

[Gilloc]

JW Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Gilloc Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > JW Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > Five letters in the post today and ?16.80

> worth

> > of

> > > vouchers. I'm claiming for the 07.50 and

> 18.30

> > > everyday for the duration of the reduced

> > timetable

> > > and strike. It's a pain but I'd rather have

> the

> > > cash in my pocket than theirs. Now at which

> pub

> > > should I spend it?!

> >

> > How long was that for?

>

> Not sure I understand the question, sorry! It was

> for 11-18.07.16, two claims a day for 5 days and

> one day I claimed for three cancellations. I have

> an annual ticket so I only get ?1.40 per journey.

>

> Is that what you were asking?

Yes it was. Sorry wasn't very clear. Didn't realise you could claim in the evening, as I believed there is no gap of 30 mins or more. So if you are claiming for 18.30, the fact there is a train at 18.51 means you are not delayed by more than 30 mins. Am i missing something?

[JW]

I took a punt to see whether they would pay out. They have, even though it's less than 30 mins. Do the same please. It's not a lot of money individually, and it's a pain in the @rse to claim, but collectively we can and will make a difference. PLEASE CLAIM.

[Gilloc]

JW Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I took a punt to see whether they would pay out.

> They have, even though it's less than 30 mins. Do

> the same please. It's not a lot of money

> individually, and it's a pain in the @rse to

> claim, but collectively we can and will make a

> difference. PLEASE CLAIM.

Will give it a go!

[Help-Ma-Boab]

Some early photos of the upgraded LB station @ianvisits

Don't recognise it...

[Ladygooner]

Went through London Bridge today. New concourse is amazing. Go down escalators from platform 15 to reach the other platforms. Just a shame there are few trains from ED to London Bridge now

[srisky]

Even fewer if the strike on 7 & 8 Sept goes ahead:

http://http://www.southernrailway.com

[bensam]

This article explains a lot.

http://www.cityam.com/248387/southern-rail-row-isnt-just-battle-between-operator-and

[BrandNewGuy]

Looks like we're getting our trains back:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-37225831

"Southern rail is to reinstate more than a third of the 341 daily services it axed earlier in the summer to provide a more reliable timetable.

The 119 trains, nearly all in London, will run from 5 September.

The operator introduced a reduced service in July after months of delays and cancellations, which it blamed on "unprecedented" staff sickness.

Southern is in a long-running dispute with its guards and the latest 48-hour strike begins on 7 September.

The reinstated trains include:

All of its "metro" services in south London

Sutton to Streatham via Wimbledon

Twenty-six services on the West London line between Clapham and Watford Junction/Milton Keynes

Guildford to Leatherhead"