squatters on goose green (Lounged)

[Huggers]

Is this thread as long as the one about the Mind shop yet?

[intexasatthe moment]

Rambo - didn't mean to offend ,apologies if I have .

Intention was to balance the picture given which people may have thought was universally applicable .

[Jeremy]

Waldo, ImpetuousVrouw... affordable housing is important, of course. BUT... while student accomodation in London isn't cheap, it is affordable with student loans and part-time work.

As for the Poles sharing the squat... surely the costs of living and their likely wages would be something they investigated before coming over here? If the numbers didn't add up, I don't know why they'd bother. I don't really have a lot of sympathy if they've voluntarily put themselves in a position where they need to squat.

[Domitianus]

Huggers Wrote:

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> its not like stealing a car though is it. Theyre

> not going to sell it on. Its more borrowing.And I

> mean that as an analogy by the way.

I wasnt suggesting that the hypothetical car was being 'stolen'. I was saying it was being used without the owner's consent simply by virtue of the fact that the owner wasn't him/herself actively using it. Whether or not the person taking the vehicle intended to leave it back afterwards or not is irrelevant.

If you think that it is ok in principal for someone to access and use someone else's possessions simply because the owner isn't actively using them at that point in time (which effectively is what happens with squatting), then logically you are obliged to extend the same principle to all possessions. If you balk at doing so you are clearly sensing something wrong with the basic moral principle. If that is so...why is squatting acceptable?

I wonder if these squatters would be very happy if I sneaked into their squat, took their laptop and borrowed it for a few days if they were away at a music festival or something? I bet they would kick off like h**l! Yet, morally, I would be applying exactly the same principle they are using to justify squatting.

[genwilliams]

hellosailor Wrote:

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> ImpetuousVrouw Wrote:

> >

> > if people are homeless

> > and rich property owners have more homes than

> they

> > need or can be bothered to look after then I

> think

> > it's perfectly acceptable for homeless people

> to

> > satisfy their fundamental human need for

> shelter

> > by squatting the empty property.

>

>

> define homeless? A bunch of students with laptops

> and internet access does not scream 'homeless' at

> me. Not many homeless people are enrolled at

> college and spend their free time chatting in

> forums on the internet. Not wanting to work your

> arse off like most people in order to pay rent or

> to stay at your mums because it's like, waaaaay

> cooler maan to break into someone else's house

> does not equal homeless.

> do we really think that if the GGT weren't

> squatting in this house they would be sleeping

> rough? With their laptops tucked into their

> sleeping bags?

> And who said the owner 'can't be bothered to look

> after his property?' - they have only just bought

> it and are most likely assembling a crew/waiting

> for paperwork to be signed off to start renovating

> it! If you went abroad for a few weeks holiday and

> when you got back 7 students had broken in and

> decided your home was now theirs, would you think,

> 'fair play, I wasn't really looking after the

> place!'

Some of your points are valid, but I begin to disagree the minute you lapse into "Not wanting to work your arse off like most people in order to pay rent or to stay at your mums because it's like, waaaaay cooler maan to break into someone else's house does not equal homeless." What does 'coolness' have to do with it? What do you know of these people's home situations (are their parents even in London at all, or are these homes they can actually live in? We have no idea!) or what income they are able to make, what jobs they are able to secure in the present market?

It's such a typical and ignorant way of sniping at the other party and it only devalues your argument. You disagree with the idea that it's okay for people to move into someone else's property without permission - fair enough, and an argument that has much to back it up. But what do you actually know about these people, how they spend their day, what activities & work they're engaged in? Just because you disagree with their ethics doesn't validate any assumptions about their 'laziness' or otherwise, and letting your argument relate so heavily to these assumptions just makes you sound reactionary.

[alice]

we do know something about the squatting boys ...they havent signed on as homeless in southwark - for that they would need to prove they cannot go back to parents. Young men in that group get housing benefit - for reasons they havent made clear they dont want to do that. Its not unreasonable, therefore, to consider the possibility that parents have refused to sign the homeless chitty or indeed that the boys dont actually want that done. Being 'cool' is a huge motivator for any action by a young person. It is irrelevant whether they are lazy, unpleasant, cute, academic, industrious etc

[hellosailor]

I agree genwilliams, that I don't know these boys personally and therefore admittedly don't know, as you say, whether or not they have the option of staying with parents.

I would however find it really quite a coincidence if every single one of a group of seven mates of pre-university age (the GGT state that they are college age and haven't been to uni 'yet') have all been simultaneously told they are no longer welcome at home by their parents. Perhaps it is partly their petulant tone when they refer to not being able to pay 'stupid rent charges in london' that adds fuel to my personal guess that they are not likely to be a group of underprivileged or genuinely 'homeless' people who can see no other option but to forcibly take someone else's home.

I note they say they are at college and have not been to university 'yet' - does this fit with the suggestion that they are a disadvantaged, underprivileged, homeless group? Who can say. I'm not sure how many of the homeless people sleeping rough on the embankment are planning on paying to go to uni anytime soon.

[SeanMacGabhann]

I don?t want to be too harsh here but that really isn?t what crosses the mind of people who are trying to get away for a better life. Or if it does enter the equation then faith and optimism override it

If I knew what I would be living on when I arrived in England I probably wouldn never have emigrated here ? doesn?t mean it wasn?t the right thing for me. When you are coming from a place with nothing (and Ireland in the 80s qualifies as close to that) then the (even minimal) chance of something better means you don?t over-worry about cost-of-living and wages. You just jump before it?s too late

[Jeremy]

You've not managed to convince me! Especially given the availability of information these days, and especially the number of Poles who work/have worked in the UK. I shan't continue though - I don't want to be misinterpreted...

[cate]

Coming from Poland and coming from Ireland is not the same. The language issue means that a lot of Polish people are forced to work in menial lower paid jobs. Why would they think it is OK to make a new prosperous life in a place where you don't speak the language? Hopefully the message has got through now.

[SeanMacGabhann]

It wasn?t information or lack of that is a problem. I don?t think you need to worry about being misinterpreted ? but nor do I think I ever will convince you.

I just don?t think you have ever been in a situation (upbringing/geography) where desperate measures (with a sideorder of a gamble) are required

I know I said ?if I knew how much I would be on..? I may not have come over ? but the truth is I would have because the opportunity to better that existed in England in a way it just didn?t at home. It really is a no brainer

[SeanMacGabhann]

Cate ? have to question you on:

?The language issue means that a lot of Polish people are forced to work in menial lower paid jobs.?

Are you really not aware that it is only in recent years (say mid 80s or so) that the Irish have managed to escape from the role of badly paid menial jobs and labourers? I don?t see any signs up in B&Bs which expressly forbid Polish people in the way that Irish people were either

[Domitianus]

None of the posts about homelessness or financial hardship or destitution or whatever make the slightest bit of difference IMO. The owner of a property is the owner of a property and whatever he/she decides to do with it is up to him/her (as long as it doesan't actively harm others of course).

If those putting forward the homelessness/social conscience-type argument really believe that entitles people to use other people's belongings as they see fit - let me ask you a question. Do you have a spare room, piece of floor, couch etc in your own home that a homeless person could sleep on? That would be better than sleeping on the street, even if it isn't high luxury? If you do, how would you feel if a homeless person turned up on your doorstep, demanding the right to sleep in your house because there was sleeping space available that you weren't fully using? I doubt you would be very happy. WHat would you say if they pointed out that they needed shelter and you weren't using that box-room or corner of the lounge anyway?

[cate]

I have Irish relatives and friends who emigrated to the US and the Caribbean. They did not work in low paid jobs for long.

I think the Irish you are talking about doing badly paid menial jobs are a good generation or two away. People who would be in their seventies or eighties now. From what I saw a lot of them had terrible alcohol problems and were quite possibly their own worst enemies. I am also guessing that they weren't as well educated as recent economic migrants from Ireland are. By recent I mean the Seventies and Eighties. After the Irish economy took off there were far less Irish needing or wanting to come over.

The reason I brought this up in the first place was because the GGT mentioned that there were Polish people living in the squat because they didn't get paid very much. Then you tried to align Irish immigration with that and I believe that the language difference means that it is not comparable.

I never saw signs forbidding Irish people in B&Bs although I understood that they existed. Black people were also forbidden. Wasn't that in the Fifties and Sixties? Obviously that would be illegal now.

[Domitianus]

cate Wrote:

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> I have Irish relatives and friends who emigrated

> to the US and the Caribbean. They did not work in

> low paid jobs for long.

>

> I think the Irish you are talking about doing

> badly paid menial jobs are a good generation or

> two away. People who would be in their seventies

> or eighties now. From what I saw a lot of them

> had terrible alcohol problems and were quite

> possibly their own worst enemies. I am also

> guessing that they weren't as well educated as

> recent economic migrants from Ireland are. By

> recent I mean the Seventies and Eighties. After

> the Irish economy took off there were far less

> Irish needing or wanting to come over.

>

> The reason I brought this up in the first place

> was because the GGT mentioned that there were

> Polish people living in the squat because they

> didn't get paid very much. Then you tried to

> align Irish immigration with that and I believe

> that the language difference means that it is not

> comparable.

>

> I never saw signs forbidding Irish people in B&Bs

> although I understood that they existed. Black

> people were also forbidden. Wasn't that in the

> Fifties and Sixties? Obviously that would be

> illegal now.

What difference does language make in terms of whether it is right or not to squat in other people's property? If an Englifh speaker moved to Germany or France or Greece would they therefore be entitled to squat?

Furthermore, do we know that these polish people don't speak ENglish? I know many Polish people with superb English. Pop into any number of places on LL.

[pk]

cate Wrote:

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> Why would they think it is OK to make

> a new prosperous life in a place where you don't

> speak the language? Hopefully the message has got

> through now.

what is "the message"?

[cate]

Domitianus, I am not defending anyone's right to squat. I was responding to Sean's statements. It is possible that the Polish people in the squat are there because they can't get 'better jobs' because they can't speak English very well. And perhaps not. Maybe they just fancy squatting, which I said I wasn't condoning. I too know many Polish people with superb English. Many of them have their own companies.

PK - The message as I see it is think about where you are going to make a new life, especially if you don't speak the language. The same goes for English speakers moving to other countries like Spain and France.

[SeanMacGabhann]

cate:

> Why would they think it is OK to make

> a new prosperous life in a place where you don't

> speak the language? Hopefully the message has got

> through now.

Something no Briton would ever consider, right?

[Domitianus]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> cate:

>

> > Why would they think it is OK to make

> > a new prosperous life in a place where you don't

>

> > speak the language? Hopefully the message has

> got

> > through now.

>

> Something no Briton would ever consider, right?

Reminds me of a time many moons ago when I worked for a charity based in Belfast. The Director, a ghastly woman who allowed her politics to permeate the workplace once declared, whilst drunk, her objection to English people moving over to Northern Ireland and taking Irish people's jobs!!! The irony of her statement seemed lost on her.

[cate]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> cate:

>

> > Why would they think it is OK to make

> > a new prosperous life in a place where you don't

>

> > speak the language? Hopefully the message has

> got

> > through now.

>

> Something no Briton would ever consider, right?

Eh? See my comment above. Which part of Ireland are you from Sean?

[helena handbasket]

I understand the concept of "starting a new life" , that's how I came to Britain myself, but I was more than aware of the cost of living in London and ED is not an inexpensive neighborhood. There are loads of places in England that one can make a go of a better life without paying the London premium, particularly if your skill set is not white collar.

[Domitianus]

Again, all of this is interesting but IMO no amount of debate about whether individuals are hard up, destitute, should have known better, can't speak the language etc etc, alters the fact that taking over another person's property and using it without permission is morally abhorrent.

Any government that had guts would introduce legislation that squatting become illegal and that property owners have the right to use any reasonable force to expel them from their premises. In fact, I would welcome any government move to make the act of squatting a criminal offence and give police the right to remove squatters from a building instantly and prosecute them.

Btw, I am not sure if the spokesperson for the GGT answered my question as to how they had gained access to the house in the first place. I don't plan to trawl back over a dozen pages but did anyone see an answer?

[expat]

Hi Domitianus,

They climbed in a window:

>We climbed in through a window on one of the upper floors.

they never said if it was open.

Cheers

[paulino]

i think they said that they got in through an unsecured open window.

[helena handbasket]

Those windows are pretty high up. It makes me wonder if they already knew one might be open? A bit of a shot in the dark otherwise, no?

Now this is completely my own little fictional narrative running through my head, but it almost sounds like the kind of thing that might happen when handy people are called in to do some work and you are "mysteriously" burgled a few days later.

No need to shout, by my own admission I completely made that up and there is nothing mentioned previously to suggest this happened. Just my imagination running away on me again..........

*spelling edit