Five Labour Pledges

[Marmora Man]

Have a look at what people think

Public Response

I know what I think about them - what do you think about them?

[Mick Mac]

Marmora Man Wrote:

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> Have a look at what people think

>

> Public Response

>

> I know what I think about them - what do you think

> about them?

I think we also know what you think of them MM ...

[Narnia]

I'm as likely to believe these as I would 5 Tory pledges. I suspect you'll promise Christmas in Narnia!

[PeckhamRose]

I am really stuck. Politically I am way left of this New Labour.

Mind you, Ted Heath was left of this New Labour!

They have certainly had 13 years. But Cameron is a danger. He will cut benefits to people who really need them and would not dare hit the rich. The long term sickness benefit issue is one such issue he will dive in to. I am not saying it is perfect now. The reactions of the people who choose to comment on the BBC website is neither here nor there; they are as broad a bunch of commentators representing the whole of our society as - well as we are here on East Dulwich Forum.

I know I do not want to vote for the Greens (who are so unrealistic), the LibDems (for what they do in Southwark) or the Tories, but neither for the first time do I want to vote for this Labour party. And I do want to vote; I will vote.

But for whom!?

[dc]

The pledges are just shorthand. There's a huge amount of policy detail here: pledges, policies etc

[giggirl]

PeckhamRose Wrote:

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> I know I do not want to vote for the Greens (who

> are so unrealistic), the LibDems (for what they do

> in Southwark) or the Tories, but neither for the

> first time do I want to vote for this Labour

> party. And I do want to vote; I will vote.

>

> But for whom!?

You're inside my head reading my thoughts PR. How do you do that?

[Brendan]

I know that rubbishing Labour?s proposals is easy but it seems to be the only thing the conservatives are doing, gleefully and in their specifically arrogant, bombastic manner.* So instead of pointing out to me what everyone already knows why not tell us what the conservatives can offer? Not just that they are the better and only alternative to Labour, because they aren?t.

*Which only washes with a certain type of person but most of us find distasteful and goes some way to explaining why so many people won?t vote for them on principle.

[Marmora Man]

1. The Labour pledges offend my managerial instincts rather than my political. They are just so bland and banal. Management objectives should be

Specific - and detailed

Measureable

Achievable

Relevant & realistic

Time sensitive - ie have a timescale for achievement specified.

Not one of the five pledges meet any of the above criteria.

2. Brendan complains that there is a lack of policy - he could try reading Here for 29 separate articles on Conservative policy, and for greater details on some specific areas then here (Health), here (Schools), here (Economy) and here (Government Transparency).

3. Peckham Rose - you might consider voting for the best local candidate irrespective of party - I would suggest this is Andy Stranack but it's obviously your choice - but I would urge you and everyone to use their vote.

4. I argue for a conservative government on the grounds of historical competence and a commitment to smaller and, more importantly, affordable government. The great unsaid of Labour's recent budget was that, even if their vague and unsubstantiated plans for halving the deficit do actually work (despite the over optimistic estimates of growth and reliance on "efficiency savings"), the National Debt will still be double its current level at the end of a further 5 years at ?1.4 TRILLION pounds. Since 2001 government spending has been financed by a steadily growing reliance on borrowing which now stands at ?500,000,000 a day.

[????]

MM I think that they're are vacous and meaningless but I'm equally unconvinced by the Conservatives now. If they've a vision or strategy, I don't see or hear it. All I increasingly see is a set of clearly negative and tactical/opportunistic attacks on an admittedly awful government but with no clear direction themselves and what appears to be a major lack of confidence and gravitas.... they look lightweight. And, from seriously considering it I am now almost certainly not voting Conservative....they are thoroughly unconvincing in my opinion. Luckily the Liberal Democrast are the best 'anyone but Labour option round here.

Tony Blair may have been a charlatan but the contrast in terms of actual clear pledges with clear targets that Labour put out in 1997 and this set of touchy feely 'progressive' nothingness is sharp.

[Huguenot]

Agreed Quids.

MM the irony is you've just done exactly what it is that everyone has said they're fed up with the conservatives about: your point 4 is 'vote Tory because Labour is crap'. There is no vision or strategy.

Regardless of this clearly negative campaigning, it's simply disingenuous.

From the ERM to the destruction of our schools and hospitals, the Tories don't have a great record in government either.

Tories have a well earned reputation for an unholy marriage of greed, selfishness, and jobs for the toff boys. Their only response is to point at the opposition and say 'they're rubbish too'. Well whoopie-do. Thanks for nothing ;-)

[SteveT]

I cannot bring myself to vote for Lord Snooty as P.Eye tag Cameron,

he does appear lightweight, shallow, and far too fresh faced to cope with deep meaningful problems.

Brown is going to the elections for the first time in his life, though several years over due, to be told where to go by the electorate.

Which all leaves the Libdems in an apparently strong position,

although the electorate have always gone for the big two parties for the general election.

It seems most thinking people are in a quandary who to vote for,

perhaps the raving loonie party are still at it.

[Huguenot]

I can't help myself, but how about some Tory pledges...

[matthew123]

At the end of the day people will be guided as much, if not more, by the last Tory government when they visit the ballot box. That is the biggest problem for the Conservatives the memories that still linger from 1997 - and perhaps also why the Conservatives were re-elected in 1992 (again 13 years after the opposition had been in power). IMO history will repeat itself.

[Keef]

Did anyone hear George Osborne talking absolute nonsense today? Making a lot of promises that unfortunately, may win them votes, but are not even remotely realistic!

Ask the chancellors is on Channel 4 tonight at 8. Should be interesting.

[????]

I think it's a political own goal actually Keef - we've massive debts to repay and a reversal in the proposed National Insurance increase paid for out of apparent efficiencies with no effects on service delivery looks pie in the sky. Labour must be rubbing their hands with glee. Osbourne looks a massive liability and the Tories just look opportunistic idiots. Increasingly it looks likey to me that we'll get another term of GB who really, really deserves nothing else but the boot, Depressing all round....still I'm not sure if anyone really wants to win this election, the next 5 years will be carnage - strikes, cuts and very poor economic growth.

[Marmora Man]

matthew123 Wrote:

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At the end of the day people will be guided as much, if not more, by the last Tory government when they visit the ballot box. That is the biggest problem for the Conservatives the memories that still linger from 1997

Unfortunately many memories of the era 1979 - 1997 are the stuff of folk stories, ghosties and ghoulies with Margaret Thatcher cast as an evil witch and nothing positive achieved. Those whose memories extend to the late 60s and 70s can and do appreciate what that Conservative administration achieved in reversing a seemingly inevitable decline. Mistakes were made but the handover from Conservatives to Labour in '97 was of a growing economy with low national debt.

[Marmora Man]

???? Wrote:

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I think it's a political own goal actually Keef - we've massive debts to repay and a reversal in the proposed National Insurance increase paid for out of apparent efficiencies with no effects on service delivery looks pie in the sky.

I think you may be surprised. Reversing the NI hike is something that business has been asking for - and the Conservatives are not the only party quoting "efficiency savings" - Alaistair Darling's entire plan seems to rest on a similar argument + some very unrealistic estimates of growth. I'll be watching tonight's programme with interest - and expect George Osbourne to, at least, holds his own if not win the bout.

[????]

I think that the economics may possibly be true MM but I think the politics is awful. I think that Labour are winning the politics on the economy which is truly truly laughable and does show how poor DC and the Tories have been. They seem to have lost their bottle once they got significantly ahead in the polls and therefore passed the initiative back to Labour. I'm not going to vote Labour - who are the only party I've ever voted for in a GE) but as you know was considering voting Tory..can't see it now.

Labour has successfully passed all the blame for the recession onto the global economy and the evil bankers and the tories have let them get away with this. The Tories have also decided eralier on an austerity approach - always risky - and suddenly today in the light of poor polls suddenly it's tax cuts (or no planned increase anyway). 2nd rate politics IMO and a lack of conviction... with the risk of 5 more years of Gordon.

[Marmora Man]

Quids - I wouldn't argue that the Conservatives tactics in the run up to the election have been poor (and personally disappointing) I still believe hey are the only option. They do have the policies, they do have the plans and they will (I am sure) deliver a better Britain over the next five years. Regrettably, they haven't given me all the ammo I need to argue that convincingly.

What I can argue convincingly is that the caricature of Conservatives and Conservative policy as portrayed by the likes of Ratty and others is plain wrong.

[Ant]

Seems a good time to share this link: http://voteforpolicies.org.uk/

Obviously I'm not saying we should all vote based purely on what the site says, but it may help to take a step away from all the faff and noise, and it might challenge a few assumptions about where to place the old x.

[Keef]

Where to place the old kiss? :-$

[*Bob*]

The Three Chancellors debate..

George Osborne. Good god. On a superficial level (remembering that superficiality accounts for a good third of crosses in boxes when it comes to the GE) he was every inch the oily, dead-fish-eyed, insincere caricature that the Tories are desperate not to be seen as.

As regards the position he wants to apply for: he came across as an examination 'crammer' trying to recall his four sheets of A4 (with highlighted sections) rather than someone who even seems interested in the job, let alone knowledgeable on the subject.

[david_carnell]

Ant Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Seems a good time to share this link:

> http://voteforpolicies.org.uk/

>

> Obviously I'm not saying we should all vote based

> purely on what the site says, but it may help to

> take a step away from all the faff and noise, and

> it might challenge a few assumptions about where

> to place the old x.

Based on 4 policy areas I'm a member of the wrong party.

100% Green Party.

[Ant]

Where to place the old kiss?

Heh. Any fule kno that in election years the kiss goes on whichever baby is nearest to hand.

[Brendan]

Marmora Man Wrote:

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> Quids - I wouldn't argue that the Conservatives

> tactics in the run up to the election have been

> poor (and personally disappointing) I still

> believe hey are the only option. They do have the

> policies, they do have the plans and they will (I

> am sure) deliver a better Britain over the next

> five years. Regrettably, they haven't given me all

> the ammo I need to argue that convincingly.

>

> What I can argue convincingly is that the

> caricature of Conservatives and Conservative

> policy as portrayed by the likes of Ratty and

> others is plain wrong.

I don?t disagree that they will probably take things forward better than a labour party government will but I have genuine concern that they will, as Vince Cable said last night, ??get their noses in the trough and reward their rich backers.?

And there is nothing that they are showing us that indicates to the contrary. They are keeping their cards very close to their chest. We don?t know if this is because they realise that they are going to have to do things which will upset their traditional supporters or because they don?t want to frighten off swing voters by saying that they intend to protect the rich in this their time of need.

On your point about the caricature of Conservatives and Conservative policy being wrong maybe I can explain where it comes from;

You have just in your last paragraph unintentionally displayed one of the attitudes which spark these caricatures by saying, ??they are the only option.?

This echoes George Osborne?s closing comment last nigh, comes across as dismissive of the other options and belies a certain arrogance which people find objectionable and which makes it very easy to form negative opinions.

There is a reliance on this dismissive arrogance in both the Conservative and Labour campaigns because it is their only argument that are any better equipped to run a government than the Liberal Democrats (an aside regarding my current political decisions) when the only evidence for this is that that they both have more money for a bigger PR campaigns. This further seems to indicate an attitude that representation should be directly proportional to how much money you have.

But this is just one example of where this caricature of conservatives comes from. My own experience, for what it?s worth, of people who support the Conservative Party in the uk is that they display little of what I believed Conservatism to be i.e. a belief in good values and personal responsibility but rather they delight in the arrogance of wealth and the only thing they seem concerned about conserving is privilege. All you need to do is have a few chats with people in the City and around Whitehall to see this.

This doesn?t come from some entrenched political prejudice I have but just from the observations of a man who over the last 7 years has been trying to make sense of the political landscape of the world he?s found himself in. The type of comfortably disconnected and sometimes willfully mean spirited views that seem to go hand in hand with British Conservatism really do exist (perhaps not amongst all but they are evident I many) and are what the (in some peoples opinion, unjustified) caricatures are based on.