Traffic Wardens

[Marmora Man]

mockney piers Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> what happened to his post? I have to say I was a

> bit miffed with mamora's suggestion that you can

> do what you like, when rules don't apply to you,

> and then get off most of the time by chewing up

> precious resources!

I wasn't proposing anarchy - just that there is a tendency with traffic wardens to ticket anything that stays still for 5 minutes. If you feel you've been unfairly ticketed appeal - by not appealing in such situations it reinforces the money grabbing tendency and tactics.

All that said if James parked deliberately in a disabled bay then the ticket (and subsequent fine) was legit. Pay up and take the lumps.

[Tom]

we have a disabled parking bay on our street. The old girl who was disabled and really needed the space moven on a year or so ago.

The council won't remove the bay even though there isn't a disabled person within 100 metres either way up the road and parking space is in short supply.

I have ranted numerous times to the council to no avail.

Then i parked there one eve and forgot to move the following morning. ?60.

cnuts.

Anyone got any ideas how i can get this resolved without tearing down the signs myself??

[Keef]

Just tear down the signs, we won't tell ;-)

[Marmora Man]

mockney piers Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> what happened to his post? I have to say I was a

> bit miffed with mamora's suggestion that you can

> do what you like, when rules don't apply to you,

> and then get off most of the time by chewing up

> precious resources!

I thought I'd posted a reply to this. Wasn't suggesting flouting all rules and then going to appeal when caught on the 70% probability that Southwark wouldn't pursue. However, I dislike councils using dodgy tactics (including setting a financial target for wardens rather than a compliant target) to create an income stream from parking tickets and therefore believe that, if you feel wronged, appeal. If you do not appeal it only encourages the tendency to dream up yet more revenue raising schemes to hit us all.

[Tom]

Direct action... like it.

Will the EDF have a whip round and chip in for my court fine??!!

[SimonM]

>Huguenot it's quite remarkable the number of people who have these badges. I've seen 6ft plus tattooed gentlemen wearing >shorts jumping out of vauxhall vectras with darkened windows with these so called disabled badges. It's shocking. I >could tell you of at least four locations along Peckham High Street where these things are sold on the streets

If you want to argue against the abuses of the Blue Badge system then noone will disagree with you, certainly not the overwhelmingly majority of the people who possess these badges, use them correctly and are equally livid with the widespread abuse. However the law has recently been tightened up and the penalties for abuse increased. But yes, we all know of people using their dead mother-in-law's badge years after she has kicked the bucket. That hardly justifies dismantling the whole system though... And you should not always automatically assume that because a person is not instantly, obviously disabled then they must be abusing the system.

But with parking spaces for badge users you are on much less firm ground. The various bays dotted seemingly haphardly around ED are there for the most part because a resident will have requested one in or close to that particular spot, having no doubt got weary of bumper to bumper parking on their own road and being unable to park within streets of his/her flat or house. Even then he/she cannot request such a bay exclusive to their use.

Sainsbury's like all large supermarkets, has in the past suffered from systemic abuse of the bays by lazy shoppers (in this connection it is of course much harder to enforce proper use of these bays on what is effectively private land compared to those on the public highway). The ED Sainsbury's has an enormous car park, and the number of disabled bays in any such car park will always be a certain proportion of the whole (I forget what the recommended figure is) Reserving the bays closest to the entrance for disabled users and/or parents of young children - both categories needing proximity to the store as well as extra wide access between bays - seems only sensible and equitable. If you don't want to walk from the outer fringes of the car park you can of course always catch the bus which stops at the front door...

[Frisco]

I've been reading the East Dulwich Forum for a couple of months, but tonight I decided to join after reading some of the false assumptions and ignorance about Blue Badges, disabled parking spaces and the needs for disabled people generally.

Just to be clear that anyone who parks in a marked disabled parking space is breaking the law, and, in my view, deserves to be fined. Also, in the new two tear parking fines, the fine for parking in a disabled parking bay without a Blue Badge is at the highest more serious level, so you'd be better off parking on yellow lines.

As a disabled East Dulwich resident I have a particular interest in this, but I began to read this because I have no great liking for Southwark's parking attendants. However, having read some of the postings here, I've now begun to change my mind. If you saw me in the street, apart from the walking aid I sometimes have to use, you wouldn't know that I'm disabled. it's invisible, but extremely painful and it affects my whole body, making it difficult for me to walk or to stand for anything but a very short time. There are days when I'm unable to leave the house (sometimes I can't get out of bed), or when I couldn't do so without access to my car and to parking close to where I need to be.

I also know the disabled parking spaces referred to, they are at the LL end of Ashbourne Grove at the side of the HSBC bank. There are always chancers using these parking spaces, whatever the time of day, and I'm actually very pleased to find out that Southwark are actually enforcing their use and issuing tickets to the ignorant and anti-social abusers.

As for the abuse of Blue Badges, first of all no one can tell who is and isn't disabled by looking at them, but Blue Badges are not easy to obtain by genuinely disabled people. They are, however, abused by able-bodied people, who are not entitled to use them, or by people who have obtained them illegally, perhaps through theft. These people are more-or-less doing the same as those who abuse disabled spaces by casually parking in them.

However, none of that mitigates against the casual abuse of disabled parking spaces by able-bodied people, who seem to justify their action by what they 'think' they see other people do, and which inevitably denies the opportunity to park to any disabled people who break the assumed 6pm curfew that some people seem to think we keep.

Sorry my first posting on the EDF seems to be a lecture, but I was astounded by some of the crass ignorance and self-righteous justifications on this thread.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Glad to see you taken the plunge Frisco - and not at all lecturey - nice and heart-felt

I heard a similiar debate on BBC London radio last night - only the debate on here was MUCH more balanced (to be fair to us, plenty of people were defending the bays - unlike the succession of blokes ringing the radio station last night. And they all sounded exactly the same)

[pk]

as a newbie myself may be i'm overstepping the mark in thanking frisco for the contribution, but thanks

i was tempted to raise your issue about not everyone who suffers from a disability meets everyone's stereotype of what a disabled person looks like when someone up the thread said that they challenged people to prove to him/her that they were diabled if they didn't look disabled to them, but wasn't sure that it'd be well recieved

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

Louisa & others - my friend has a blind/autistic 10 year daughter who can't walk far and walks at a snails pace when she does. My friend has a blue badge as she is her carer and if she was not able to park in the disabled bay (which often she isn't because of illegal parking) she would have a very difficult time ever getting any shopping done. Her daughter is too heavy to carry for more than the time it takes her to sit her inside the shopping trolley while she wheels her around, and she has to have regular physiotherapy because all the lifting of her daughter has messed her back up.

Now do you understand why there are disabled bays? Or do you think her already extremely difficult life should be made worse?

[tiddles]

I hate traffic wardens (ok, the system that makes them do what they do)

I have never parked in a disabled bay (sorry, sanctimonious I know)

Have a registered disababled friend who has been ticketed numerous times for not displaying the number clearly (you know how it slips down on the dashboard). A busy working person who is always 'dashing' from various appts all over london. She has now given up on appealing as it is so time intensive. so, I reiterate, I really, really dislike them. Give parking control back to the coppers ( they can supervise the attendents) so we don't get this ridiculous money/quota thing - and those that have committed a proper parking offense can hold their hands up - a fair cop. I heard a senior traffic person admitting that many of the companies running traffic control for local councils are private equity firms - so its obvious what is going on.

[LostThePlot]

Last week I received a nice picture of my car parked in Camberwell Green, at 00:23, as I waited to collect my wife off a bus, rather than let her get a bus home from there herself.

Summons tells me I was parked on a Red Route. I e-mail my objections stating I was in a red route parking bay, and that there were plates saying the route operated between certain hours, and as it was half midnight, Unlikely that they were in operation.

Yesterday I got a letter back. Penalty cancelled "Due to lack of sufficien evidence" So, my question is this. IF there is now lack of sufficient evidence, wasn't that just a ticket issued in the hope I would just accept it?

Also, something people should remember is this. Issuing a ticket is a low cost affair. However, to then go through the process of looking into a ticket further, and dealing with a complaint costs the company money. So if there is the slightest doubt then there is a good chance they'll back down, as it's not worth persuing.

I worked for one of the utilities and if a person was in debt below a certain amount then it woudl be written off, as the cost of recovery was known. I woudl just like to add though. If you use something and don't pay for it, like leccie, or your phone, or gas then you're thieving scum. But this whole parking thing......some of it is just plain wrong. Last night, I saw a car getting a ticket outside Belaire House, at 10:45. Simply unbelievable!

[Loz]

Around near St Francis Estate, the traffic wardens had a big bonus time over that last year or so ticketing all the 5-a-siders that parked with wheels on the pavement. Given the width of the road, this was a sensible thing to do and kept the road clear. So now everyone parks 'properly', but the situation is now downright dangerous and clogs the whole road up on a blind bend. Brilliant traffic management. Not.

In reply to LostThePlot, the simple answer is to create a rule that says if you contest a ticket successfully the council pays *you* ?120 (or ?60 if they pay you within 14 days!). That cost could be passed onto the private firms running the wardens. The dodgy ticket problem would disappear overnight.

This will, of course, never happen...

[SeanMacGabhann]

There are definitely underhand and sneaky tricks going on with traffic control warderns/councils and I do have some sympathy with individuals caught up in Kafkaesque bureaucracy

But as stated the situation isn't going to get any better. Viewed objectively the real reason this attrition is going on is the increasing number of people owning vehicles - and I have yet to hear anybody explain how a city is going to accomodate ever more (and ever BIGGER at that) vehicles

So let's say the council stopped doing what it was doing and started being fair - where do people think we would be in 10 years time say? The road you live in, for example, will have more flats, with more cars needing parking on the same road - that space doesn't magic itself up whether you agree with controlled parking zones or not

[Keef]

Exactly right Sean! Power to the walkers man! >:D

[Frisco]

"Yesterday I got a letter back. Penalty cancelled "Due to lack of sufficien evidence" So, my question is this. IF there is now lack of sufficient evidence, wasn't that just a ticket issued in the hope I would just accept it?"

This is exactly right, they do appear to issue incorrect tickets in the hope that a proportion of people will just pay up. Last year I got a photograph of my car parked in Southampton Row in Camden, claiming that I was parked in a bus lane. I telephoned and asked them where a bus lane was shown in the picture, the person said when perhaps it was a 'no loading' area. Of course, he was completely missing the point (and no hoping I would) in that the ticket didn't mention a no loading area, so was therefore invalid.

The penalty charge notice had been issued by someone operating a remote camera at the junction with Theobalds Road, and although he was able to claim from a operations room miles away that I was parked in a non-existent bus lane, it required a site inspection to determine that there was neither a bus lane there, nor a no loading restriction in place at the time I had parked. It's disgraceful opportunistic money grabbing tactics, and they go for the easy option.

My East Dulwich experience was on Lordship Lane at roughly 9pm one weekday night, when I had joined some friends for a drink (water in my case) in one of the new bars. I'm disabled and I have a blue badge, which means that I can park on yellow lines for a maximum of three hours. However, Blue Badges do not apply when there are kerb markings or signs indicting that no loading restriction are in place. On the night in question, I returned to my car to find I had a ticket, which said that I was parked in a place where the was a no loading restriction in place. I looked around for a sign or any kerb markings and couldn't find anything. I then noticed a very faint and unnoticeable yellow make on the kerb.

I made written representations, and drew the state of the markings to the council's attention and they withdrew the penalty. However, they haven't done anything to change the faulty markings that I drew to their attention, and the situation remains the same for any unsuspecting person in my position to park there and get a ticket. I've no doubt that a proportion of those people will just pay up without question.

They have us over a barrel, and in a position so that people have to prove their innocence.

[Asset]

I was in the process of getting a ticket the other day (wheels on kerb so as not to block the street for the 5 mins I was parking, no yellows or disabled bays). I said please don't give me a ticket and he said "ok as you said please, I won't" and stopped writing it! Phew.

[bignumber5]

I think I can add to just how ludicrous it has got: I got a ticket on my motorbike in the centre of town when parked in a solo-motorbike-only bay because I had a tyre over the line and in the meter bay next to me - the car in the meter bay got a ticket too, and the reason on my ticket was that I was in a meter bay and hadn't put enough money in the meter... Harsh. What makes it worse is that I didn't have any camera type kit on me to take a pic of it so I just had to stump up the 50 sovs. Sort of compounds the theory that it's about making money rather than promoting safe road use and parking.

[SeanMacGabhann]

There seems to be general consensus about how harsh/zealous/OTT the authorities are - but I am interested again in asking the question - what does the future hold for car drivers? And not in a "the authorities will just keep squeezing us" way - let's for the sake of argument say we have the most benevolent change of authority and allow generous and free parking facilities with no fines

So: With all of the new cars coming onto the roads - where will we be in 10 years time?

[Amelie]

If faulty road markings have not been repainted I suggest that people write to the Highways Agency and ask if this amounts to breach of statutory duty by LBS. If they say yes, copy the letter to the CEO of Southwark and give her a fixed time to make good. The Audit Commission's CPA assessment is coming up in September .................

[Frisco]

"If faulty road markings have not been repainted I suggest that people write to the Highways Agency and ask if this amounts to breach of statutory duty by LBS. If they say yes, copy the letter to the CEO of Southwark and give her a fixed time to make good. The Audit Commission's CPA assessment is coming up in September ................."

I did think of doing that, and I might do it when I have a little more time.

To me it beggars belief that that a council can't organise itself so that an appeal based on faulty road markings can't initiate a work request for them to be repainted. Remember the concept of joined-up thinking?

I'm glad to hear about the CPA review, although I do think that they are rather an irrelevant as far as the person in the street is concerned.

[snorky]

I must admit - apart form the Lidl situation - I have never been ticket when it wasnt warranted, even if it was annoying.

with regard to to parking on junctions, on the dropped kerbs, then this is a matter of courtesy & common sense surely ?

[lozzyloz]

It's a disgrace that a parking fine was issued just for parking in a disabled bay.

Car should have been towed and crushed!

[Huguenot]

I imagine that the money quota thing wasn't set to irritate or maliciously ticket - but to ensure that traffic wardens don't go and sit in coffee bars all day. It would, after all, be a tremendous opportunity to abuse a job?

I don't see that the police control would change matters, unless it gave the general public the chance to complain that the police should focus on 'proper criminals' instead of traffic, and then stop ticketing people who selfishly park in disabled bays, across access ramps or block traffic by double parking on key roads? This is the punishment meted out to them for speed cameras after all?

Incidentally I wasn't recommending lynch mobs earlier, but if a guy can do ten star jumps, twenty burpees and read the FT all share page at 60 metres then the blue badge should reviewed.

I love the idea of a group called 'they' who are out to steal and harass motorists, as if there is a group of individuals whose very existence is defined by their hatred of the population - no doubt with blood under their fingernails and acid in their saliva.

They're really just common or garden bureaucrats like us whose job is to issue tickets to peeps who break motoring law. Sometimes they make mistakes, big deal. They generally don't like grey areas and extenuating cirucmstances because if everything was negotiable all hell would break loose.

They have to draw the line somewhere, and as in rugby, just over it is 'out'. Incidentally there's something in there for football players, in whose world so much squealing has taken place that the ball has to be 'fully' over the line before it's out. What silliness - the rules allow for metres of flexibility in the width of the pitch anyway! ;-)