Anyone had any problems with Kingsdale's scholarship/admissions Sept 2010?

[rflomen]

Hi, we wondered if anyone else has had similar problems to ours with the issue of Kingsdale school and scholarships for September 2010. Our son was offered a sports scholarship in October and we were told a letter confirming this would be sent shortly. We were also encouraged by the school to tell our son about this and we did so...obviously his friends and our friends got to know about it. We finally received a letter dated December 23rd 2009 from Kingsdale informing us that he had not in fact been offered a scholarship place but had been offered a place on the gifted and talented sports program ?IF? he were offered a place at the school. Prior to this it was not at any time made clear that there were in fact 3 types of "scholarship" on offer (the headteacher's talk on open day and the school's website also made no mention of this). Indeed, the overwhelming impression was that a scholarship guaranteed a place. We received 2 calls from the school offering our son a place on the "gifted and talented sports program" but there was no mention at this time that this was not a proper scholarship. We spoke to the school at this time and discussed the issue of informing our son of the ?scholarship? place, we were told by the school that we should inform him because he had preformed very well and should be proud of his achievement.

Forward to March 2nd 2010 and our son was not offered a place at Kingsdale. More importantly, we've had to explain this to him when he said "But I thought I'd been offered a scholarship etc"...not very nice news to have to break. We think its a shame school involved the children in this process by encouraging parents to tell them about scholarship offers.

We'd be interested to hear if anyone else on the forum has been affected and what their take on this is....sounds like a cynical ploy to persuade parents to put Kingsdale as first choice (presumably to improve standing for internal criteria)!

[FatherJack]

Hi

Alec john moore posted something re this same topic earlier this year, might be worth contacting him.

[westof]

Hi

Our experience hasn't been the same as yours, but was with music scholarship not sport, so perhaps they have been handled differently?

At the open day we went to, the head explained pretty clearly that a scholarship offer didn't automatically mean an offer of a school place. He did indicate that if you were applying for a scholarship then you should put Kingsdale as 1st preference, but that this was because of the way the CAF application worked - i.e. that if you put another school 1st, & met this school's admission criteria, you would be offered a place at your 1st choice instead of Kingsdale.

On the day of the musical aptitude tests, the teacher also explained this - admittedly they didn't explain it again when they phoned with the results, but then again, I didn't ask at that point, as I'd read the admissions policy on the website.

The letter we received after Xmas, offering the scholarship does say "Hope to see you in September" which I suppose could be misconstrued - but to be honest, by that time we'd seen how many children were taking the aptitude tests, not to mention how many (in the 100s on just one day) turned up to take the banding tests in December - (& I think the banding tests were only for non-Southwark children?) - so we had a fair idea of just how many were applying & also that there were likely to be well over the 15% who'd passed the scholarship criteria.

I did actually choose not to show my daughter the letter because I didn't want to get her hopes up too much - although I did tell her her she'd done well & been offered a scholarship but that didn't mean she'd end up going to the school.

I do have sympathy, because it's hard for a 10 year old to understand that you can pass the scholarship test but that if lots of other children have also passed, only some of them will be offered a place at the school. I ended up saying that if you got the scholarship you'd then be eligible for the lottery for a place, which isn't exactly how it works but seemed close enough.

We didn't get our place btw & daughter was very disappointed at first, but really had understood there was only ever a chance. (& luckily we got our 2nd choice which I'd spent plenty of time bigging up once I'd realised how many people were applying to Kingsdale).

[gwod]

Again, not the same experience, but I found when we were considering schools that it very hard to understand their admissions criteria. I couldn't get to the bottom of how they aligned Southwark's obligation to allow kids in by distance, with the places allocated by "scholorship" which incidentally didn't really feel like a real scholorship as it amounted to very little benefit to the children or the families. I asked lots of questions about it during the open day but couldn't get to the bottom of it. This was one of my reasons for not putting it at 1st choice despite being offered a scholorship and receiving a letter reminding me to put them at the top of the list....all a bit peculiar and not transparent enough.

[Debi]

I do understand everyone's frustration and anxiety at this time. As a parent of 2 children at the school I think I might have a clearer understanding how the process works. Hope this helps!

Scholarships: According to the selection criteria, 15% of the intake must include children awarded a scholarship. But more than this figure are initially offered scholarships. This is not 'manipulation' or a 'cynical ploy'. They have to do it this way because there's a good chance that not every one in this position would take up a place at the school, even if it was offered (as in the case of gwod on this thread). So they have no choice but to award more than that 15% figure.

When we were informed that our son (in Year 7) had his scholarships, we were told very clearly that it did not guarantee him a place at the school (even though he had a sibling there). From everything I've heard and seen, this is always made very clear at every stage. I think it's right to let your child know how well they have done to achieve the scholarship, but as westof says, it's up to parents not to raise false hopes for their children.

As for the scholarship offering very little benefit to the children, I can assure you 100% that this is not the case. For those scholars lucky enough to be offered a place, the extra tuition they receive is well beyond anything offered at any other state school that I know of.

gwod - there's some confusion here when you talk about Southwark's obligation 'to allow kids in by distance'. Schools set their own criteria and Southwark then do the allocations according to those criteria. Kingsdale does not have distance from the school as part of their criteria.

I have heard disturbing reports of children who had not put the school first being offered a place and others who DID have it first being disappointed. That doesn't feel right at all and also wouldn't be ideal for the school. Obviously it's better for them too to have children there who are totally committed to being there as their first choice. But this would be down to Southwark, not Kingsdale, as individual schools have no say in the initial selection process.

I do really feel for those of you who have been disappointed and wish you all the best of luck.

[Queenie23]

I have to say that I found Kingsdale's active targeting of the middle classes very off putting. The headmaster seems determined to mould the school into a middle class haven. The open day consisted of listening to an endless stream of children telling us how wonderful Kingsdale was (which is meaningless really at a school open day with the headmaster and teachers present!) and then we were treated to our "leader" telling us how much money the school makes. This hysterical occupation with scholarships/gifted and talented is frankly hot air. There are good secondary schools out there, all the schools I looked at this year I was happy with - and yes, I am one of those middle class parents looking for the best school possible for their child and I didn't put Kingsdale anywhere near the top of my list!

[beatricealice]

Queenie, you are right, there are many good secondary schools out there. The point is Kingsdale has been a very good school for a long while, yet when my child started (only a few years ago), the perception was unfairly negative. The school had to work hard to counter this perception, and the parents and children were quite determined to support the school, speaking at open days etc. It is a pity that you have felt that the school is targetting the middle classes only. But they were under represented for a long time. The school has always sought to achieve a balanced intake and and be a truly comprehensive school.

[Queenie23]

I hope so and I have no doubt that it is a good school. I was just put off by the aggressive hard sell of the place to - I felt - the middle classes. I understand it had a terrible rep "back in the day" but I feel now the talk of the playground is only about Kingsdale and other schools are not considered when they are just as good/well resourced.

[Debi]

It's clear that there's a need for more than one decent school in the area and as I've always said on this forum, what suits one won't suit another. I agree 100% with Beatricealice that what all schools want/need is a balanced intake and Kingsdale is no exception.

I'm sorry Queenie23 is so cynical about the children who spoke at Kingsdale Open Days. I can ensure you that their enthusiasm and loyalty was genuine. As parents, many of us feel passionately about the school and are delighted that public perception has at last caught up with the reality. I don't think the school can be held responsible for the way that so many middle class people have latched onto Kingsdale's improved reputation, making it the talk of the playground.

My fervent hope is that the ethos of the school remains unchanged and that it continues to cater for children from all different backgrounds. I also hope that everyone ends up satisfied with the school their children eventually go to.

While I'm happy to big up Kingsdale at every opportunity, I have never criticised any of the other schools in the area. While Kingsdale won't suit everyone, I hope people won't feel the need to justify their choices by spreading negative perceptions if they have them. I can't see how that would benefit anyone.

[Fuschia]

Debi Wrote:

.

>

> gwod - there's some confusion here when you talk

> about Southwark's obligation 'to allow kids in by

> distance'. Schools set their own criteria and

> Southwark then do the allocations according to

> those criteria. Kingsdale does not have distance

> from the school as part of their criteria.

>

> I have heard disturbing reports of children who

> had not put the school first being offered a place

> and others who DID have it first being

> disappointed. That doesn't feel right at all and

> also wouldn't be ideal for the school. Obviously

> it's better for them too to have children there

> who are totally committed to being there as their

> first choice. But this would be down to

> Southwark, not Kingsdale, as individual schools

> have no say in the initial selection process.

I don't think that's the case. Many Foundation Schools carry out their own sifting of the applications.

The criteria for Kingsdale are here:

http://www.kingsdale.southwark.sch.uk/PDF/Admissions-Policy-2010.pdf

Order of preference is not usually a citeria, and it's not mentioned.

[Ondine]

Hmm yes the comment about the open day seems a bit harsh. My daughter is year 7 at Kingsdale and she fell over herself to get along to one of the open days (on her Saturday) as she was really keen to promote the school to friends coming up from her primary school. She conducted loads of tours and spoke to lots of people and was not scripted in any way.

I think the school is aiming to target aspirational families, not middle class families. Almost suggests an assumption that all the education aspiration sits with the middle classes.....

[Debi]

It's such a confusing process, I'm not surprised people find it hard to grasp.

To clarify: Foundation schools most definitely can't sift applications. They can only set the criteria which are used by the local authority to allocate places.

Order of preference isn't part of the criteria. But the system used by the authority to allocate places means that where you place a school on your list makes a big difference in what you will be offered. The intention/hope is that people will be offered a place at the school they put at or near the top of their list. Obviously, if a school is over subscribed, the likelihood is that putting it lower on your list will adversely affect your chances of getting in as the places should have been offered to those who put it higher.

It doesn't always seem to work that way - partly because it's also essential to take children across the ability bands to guarantee a balanced intake. The system is no doubt flawed, but the first stage of the process is completely out of the hands of the schools themselves. It's only once you get to the appeal stage that a Foundation School can make direct decisions.

Hope this has helped.

[Fuschia]

Debi Wrote:

>

> To clarify: Foundation schools most definitely

> can't sift applications. They can only set the

> criteria which are used by the local authority to

> allocate places.

They can administer the whole process themselves if they like, in my LA the Foundation Schools have to pay if they contract the LA to deal with the admin themselves...

[Debi]

I didn't know that and can't comment. I do know that Kingsdale (and also I believe Charter who likewise have Foundation status) definitely don't deal with the first stage of the allocations process.

Might it vary between LAs?

[westof]

I have to say that the cynic in me did find the hard-sell aspect of the head's open day talk, & the streams of well-spoken children praising the school* a bit unnerving.

But - Kingsdale may well be the local school of the moment amongst the chattering classes but it definitely still has it's 'old reputation' amongst people who grew up around here & who remember it from 10-15 years ago. Possibly much more so in the areas of Brixton & Peckham where much of the old intake came from, than in leafy East Dulwich...

I had people expressing absolute shock that Kingsdale was even on our list, & telling my daughter she shouldn't put it first as it was a 'rubbish school'. I got the impression they were speaking from personal experience of some years ago, and had no idea how much it's changed.

So I don't think the need for the hard sell is over by any means.

*The children who showed us round the school were great btw, genuinely proud of their school & very helpful.

[clare]

Good for Kingsdale is all I can say and well done to all those parents who have chosen to send their children there in the last few years to support it.

[Mamma Mia]

Debi Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It's such a confusing process, I'm not surprised

> people find it hard to grasp.

>

> To clarify: Foundation schools most definitely

> can't sift applications. They can only set the

> criteria which are used by the local authority to

> allocate places.

>

> Order of preference isn't part of the criteria.

> But the system used by the authority to allocate

> places means that where you place a school on your

> list makes a big difference in what you will be

> offered. The intention/hope is that people will

> be offered a place at the school they put at or

> near the top of their list. Obviously, if a

> school is over subscribed, the likelihood is that

> putting it lower on your list will adversely

> affect your chances of getting in as the places

> should have been offered to those who put it

> higher.

>

> It doesn't always seem to work that way - partly

> because it's also essential to take children

> across the ability bands to guarantee a balanced

> intake. The system is no doubt flawed, but the

> first stage of the process is completely out of

> the hands of the schools themselves. It's only

> once you get to the appeal stage that a Foundation

> School can make direct decisions.

>

> Hope this has helped.

My daughter was offered a half music scholarship. She was asked during the assessment where she had put Kingsdale in her preferences (didn't think schools were allowed to know this information) and correctly told them second. We were initially confused about the scholarship process and when we asked if it guaranteed her a place we were told it would depend upon how far down the list she was. Many of the children we know who applied for a music scholarship were successful. My understanding was that they were offering scholarships to anyone who had musical ability and if they were subsequently offered a place they would benefit from this rather than it giving them an advantage in gaining a place.

[westof]

Although their admissions criteria - whilst ranking music/sports scholars above siblings - do also say that a maximum of 15% of the intake can be there on scholarship grounds. (actually it says "the equivalent of 15%" so maybe having 'half-scholarships' is a way of being able to apply selection criteria to a greater number of pupils?).

They also have a 'banding' waiting list & a 'scholarship' waiting list - I've no idea how that works but I'm not worrying about it since we are nowhere near the top of either!

I think that generally in schools with a random allocation element, the waiting list is also randomly allocated so that would be the banding one. I don't know if the scholarship list is randomly allocated, or a subset of the other one, or something else entirely.

[Mamma Mia]

westof Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Although their admissions criteria - whilst

> ranking music/sports scholars above siblings - do

> also say that a maximum of 15% of the intake can

> be there on scholarship grounds. (actually it says

> "the equivalent of 15%" so maybe having

> 'half-scholarships' is a way of being able to

> apply selection criteria to a greater number of

> pupils?).

>

> They also have a 'banding' waiting list & a

> 'scholarship' waiting list - I've no idea how that

> works but I'm not worrying about it since we are

> nowhere near the top of either!

>

> I think that generally in schools with a random

> allocation element, the waiting list is also

> randomly allocated so that would be the banding

> one. I don't know if the scholarship list is

> randomly allocated, or a subset of the other one,

> or something else entirely.

I was told that applicants with full scholarships would have a better chance of securing a place. It wasn't made clear how it breaks down, but they have a mix of full and half scholarships and gifted and talented groups. I think the full scholarships were allocated early on in the process as a friend whose child was also offered a half-scholarship was asked why she had left it so late if she was hoping for a full scholarship. All very confusing, I have to say, but for us it is all water under the bridge as we were fortunate to secure a first choice place in the end. Best of luck to all of you who are still hanging in there.

[Fuschia]

Mamma Mia Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>. My

> understanding was that they were offering

> scholarships to anyone who had musical ability and

> if they were subsequently offered a place they

> would benefit from this rather than it giving them

> an advantage in gaining a place.

No, if you read the admissions criteria, it gives you more priority even than having a sibling already attending

[Fuschia]

"Admission and Oversubscription Criteria

2.1 If there are more applicants than the number of places available the

following oversubscription criteria will be applied:

The applicants will be placed in one of 3 ability bands according to

their test scores, including those with a Statement of Special

Educational Needs that names the school. After places have been

allocated to children with a Statement of Special Educational Need

that names the School in accordance with the Code of Practice,

places within each band will be allocated in the following order of

priority:

i. Children in public care (Looked After Children)

ii. Children who satisfy our scholarship criteria based on

aptitude for music or sport

iii. Children who will have brothers or sisters attending the

school at their time of entry (see Note 3)

iv. Where professional evidence indicates that there are

particular psychological, medical or social needs which the

school?s Learning Support Faculty agrees can best be

addressed at the school (see Note 4)

v. Random allocation within each ability band. This process will

be supervised by a person not employed by the school"

[Mamma Mia]

Fuschia Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Mamma Mia Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> >. My

> > understanding was that they were offering

> > scholarships to anyone who had musical ability

> and

> > if they were subsequently offered a place they

> > would benefit from this rather than it giving

> them

> > an advantage in gaining a place.

>

> No, if you read the admissions criteria, it gives

> you more priority even than having a sibling

> already attending

I agree. It is the second criteria but it doesn't give you much advantage as the list of applicants with music/sport scholarships is very long. My understanding was that unless you are near the top of the list you would have very little chance of gaining a place based on the fact that you have been awarded a scholarship.

[westof]

I think if you don't make it into the 15%, you would then go into the random allocation/ banding category.

Then if you were randomly allocated a place, I guess you would keep your scholarship. Presumably that is how there seem (as mentioned on another thread) to be more than 15% with scholarships attending the school.

I think I understand now why there are 2 waiting lists!

[BB100]

Queenie23 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I have to say that I found Kingsdale's active

> targeting of the middle classes very off putting.

> The headmaster seems determined to mould the

> school into a middle class haven. The open day

> consisted of listening to an endless stream of

> children telling us how wonderful Kingsdale was

> (which is meaningless really at a school open day

> with the headmaster and teachers present!) and

I expect the reason he targets the middle classes is becuase their presence has been lacking in the school.

My child volunteered to do a speech at open day and wrote her own speech after volunteering and it was not altered in any way.

[BB100]

To any parents still worrying about secondary school places for September this is what I have gleaned from talking to lots of parents about their experiences last year.

Place allocation continues right through to September and onwards and doesn't settle down until Y8. Children shift their places around for months and places become available throughout March-July and then come Sept/Oct there appears to be hundreds of children on the move between schools. Some arrive at their chosen school and don't like it so leave and some don't turn up at all becuase they accepted two places (yes happens all the time becuase someone who is offered a place on a waiting list doesn't tell the previous school futher down on their list that they have been offered another place higher on their list, and is something I think needs to be addressed by the LAs) or some have moved away and didn't tell anyone or a child gets excluded, bullied, etc, etc.

Throughout this current year 7 I know of children who have left Harris Crystal Palace, Harris Boys, Forest Hill boys, etc and got a place at Kingsdale and visa versa. What suits one child doesn't suit another.

With the opening and expansion of secondary schools and dropping birth rate, places are not so much at a premium as one expects and come September/October you will most likely get a place at the school of your choice, if not before. Just hang in there!