93-95 LL (Londis) extension and change of use

[Louisa]

Been away for a week to Spain, and noticed on Southwark's Planning Portal that Lordship Lane has another development on the cards? The current Londis store on corner of North Cross is a proposed change of use downstairs from retail to restaurant/cafe facility with new shop front, and a rear two storey extension to provide residential units above. Was anyone else aware of this? Not seen anything on the forum yet. Here are the details. No mention of who the prospective tenant will be, but from the drawings and layout of the shop floor it could be some sort of chain restaurant maybe?

planbuild.southwark.gov.uk:8190/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=_STHWR_DCAPR_9565748

Louisa.

[DulwichFox]

Well Lou.. We are short of Eateries on Lordship Lane. Lol

... No the truth is, there are huge profits to be made in the food sector with restauranteurs being able

to charge what they like and no end of those willing to pay the highest prices for it.

Foxy

[Elphinstone's Army]

hello Louisa, : last summer, we heard, from a market stallholder, that Londis was destined to become a Costa Coffee. We scoffed at this idea, and asked in Londis, to be told emphatically, No, and were reassured by this.

We need a 24 hour Londis more than another coffee shop?

[first mate]

Well, looking at the plans I'd think it is bound to be a chain coffee store or fast food outlet. It is currently proposed at 3 stories but judging by the whole M&S saga I can imagine further applications for another storey. We are promised high quality, area enhancing architecture beautifully finished in brick facing to " blend" in with the orginal and topped with UPVc white windows. Mmmmm. Wonder what will happen to all those currently living above the current premises?

[Nigello]

Maybe it will become - gasp - a chain restaurant, such as Pizza Express, Nando's or Cafe Rouge. Would prefer that to a coffee shop but I think a convenience shop is still more, er, convenient and useful!

[JoeLeg]

DulwichFox Wrote:

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> Well Lou.. We are short of Eateries on Lordship

> Lane. Lol

>

> ... No the truth is, there are huge profits to be

> made in the food sector with restauranteurs being

> able

> to charge what they like and no end of those

> willing to pay the highest prices for it.

>

> Foxy

Hahahahahahaha!

Aaaah HAHAHAHA!

"Huge profits"?

Oh mate, I swear, you need to do a bit of research into profit margins in the catering sector.

Seriously. Unless you're talking about the really, really big companies, those margins are razor thin. I doubt you know what the wholesale prices of food are these days - good quality ingredients are not cheap.

No one can 'charge what they like'. Believe me when I say if you're paying a lot for your dinner, chances are it cost a lot to buy. To stay in business you have to price a dish at a minimum of three or even four times what the ingredients cost you to be able to pay the overheads; a lot depends on your rent, energy suppliers, laundry bills, supplier costs, staffing costs, how much you hope to make of alcohol sales and so on.

I can understand how it looks like many establishments just ask for a lot of money for very little food, but I assure you that the economics behind running a restaurant are terrifying. It's incredibly easy to go bust.

All that said I agree entirely that Lordship Lane does not need another coffee shop/deli/self-regarding restaurant etc. Londis is a useful store and should stay.

[Seabag]

Joe

You know Fox hasn't a clue about running a business. He used to run a kinda Grot-Shop, but his bagatelle of goods weren't that appealing to the folks of ED

I think it was modelled on Reggie Perrin's fantastic idea, except Reggie was fantastic at it (being a made up person on the telly) and Fox was somewhat 'not fantastic' at it, and not on the telly

Anyway, I digress. The shop will now be micro pummelled, dissected, and the subject of endless spurious nonsense from here in

Ugly Betty can rest easy

[LondonMix]

What makes this look like a fast-food store or coffee shop? I'm not saying it isn't (I don't know) but the drawings clearly state its a restaurant and there are no ordering counters in the internal layout. Without an ordering counter I can't see how or why anyone would think this was a fast food restaurant or a coffee shop rather than just a restaurant.

[johnie]

LondonMix Wrote:

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> What makes this look like a fast-food store or

> coffee shop? I'm not saying it isn't (I don't

> know) but the drawings clearly state its a

> restaurant and there are no ordering counters in

> the internal layout. Without an ordering counter

> I can't see how or why anyone would think this was

> a fast food restaurant or a coffee shop rather

> than just a restaurant.

I'd agree

[DulwichFox]

Seabag Wrote:

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> Joe

>

> You know Fox hasn't a clue about running a

> business. He used to run a kinda Grot-Shop, but

> his bagatelle of goods weren't that appealing to

> the folks of ED

>

> I think it was modelled on Reggie Perrin's

> fantastic idea, except Reggie was fantastic at it

> (being a made up person on the telly) and Fox was

> somewhat 'not fantastic' at it, and not on the

> telly

>

> Anyway, I digress. The shop will now be micro

> pummelled, dissected, and the subject of endless

> spurious nonsense from here in

>

> Ugly Betty can rest easy

That's not why my business closed... The shop closed because I did not want to take out a 14 year lease..

The owners made a ridiculous asking price because they had bigger plans. My shop was turned into 2 flats.

I was the only shop at the time 1993. Most other shops had closed down at that time or were derilict and there was no market.

I was offered a contract back in Telecoms which lead to 14 years work with high salary.

So my business head was very sound.

Joe.. If Cafes arn't the money making establishments... Why are so many people doing it.. ??

I rest my case...

DF.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Bit unfair on Fox there Seabag. He ran his own business, which isn't easy.

From those plans it definitely looks like a restaurant which is great in my book. There are loads of convenience stores on the Lane.

[JoeLeg]

"

Joe.. If Cafes arn't the money making establishments... Why are so many people doing it.. ??

I rest my case... "

'Cafes' casts a wide net. I would say it covers everything from greasy spoons to Starbucks to independent artisan coffee houses, park cafes to semi-restaurant establishments like Blue Mountain. So it's hard to answer without knowing exactly what you mean by cafes.

However, I'd say that if we're talking about the massive chains, well they have to be seen for what they are - massive sales engine that uses coffee, cake and sandwiches as it's product. In many ways they are no different to Primark, McDonalds, B&Q or Specsavers. Pricing is determined by suits in head office and the financial picture is seen in national or international terms. The individual store might not make a lot of money, or even a region, but it's possible for other stores or regions to cover it - for example Starbucks in Japan ran at a loss overall for years, but other parts of the world covered it. It's all about turnover. Each location may only make 2% profit margin annually, but when you have thousands of stores across the world you build up a cash reserve and buying power that moves you into a different realm altogether.

But the small independents, or small chains, are different. They face the exactly the same market forces as the big boys, but don't have the corporate back up, purchasing power, marketing power or cash reserves. They will make roughly the same profit margins, but whereas Pret A Manger can afford to shut down an under performing location and not go out of business, for an independent that's the end of it. But as I say, they're all faced with the same market forces, labour costs, energy bills, business rates and so on.

Essentially my answer to your question is that a lot of people think running a coffee shop or a cafe is easy or romantic or fun. The reality is that 80%-90% of start ups don't last 12 months, usually because people don't realise how much it costs to run a business like that. Cafes - of any type - are no more or less of a money maker than bistro's, burger bars or fine dining. But it's easy to look at them and think they are.

I'm probably coming across sounding patronising and I don't mean to - but this is my job and I get quite intense about it. I understand why people think we must all be making money hand over fist - and there are some who rise to the top and coin it. But for the vast majority of us it's much, much harder.

I still don't want Londis to go though.

[LondonMix]

I use that Londis fairly regularly. It has the widest magazine selection of the various shops. That is all I go in there for though.

I'd love a Nandos! Looking at how small this is though, I'm not sure its large enough for most chain restaurants like that. Maybe a Ping Pong-- I've been in a really tiny one of those on Oxford St.

Probably just another small group though like ToastED, Blue Mountain or the Flying Pig that have a few restaurants (sometimes under different names) in London.

[Jeremy]

It obviously won't be a Nando's - although we'd certainly use it...

[LondonMix]

Also Joe Leg, I think there are a lot of restaurants and coffee shops because other retailing is moving heavily online. That means experienced based retailing is what will dominate, particularly in an area like this that has good but not city center type footfall.

I'm actually surprised that Sweaty Betty, Question Air, Oliver Bonas, White Stuff, ED Warehouse, Mrs Robinson and the smaller clothing boutiques (I can think of 5 but don't know all their names) make sense in this area. Perhaps we are just far enough away from a major shopping area (high or low end) with just the right amount of footfall to make it work. However, with so much retailing closing down to online competition, I'm still happily surprised this area can support such a large cluster of different types of shops.

We've got a few jewelry stores, galleries, florists and garden shops, a cinema, 11 pubs, a toy store, clothing and shoe stores, ceramics places, captured on the rye, and two bookstores. This is in addition to all the restaurants, cafes, deli's and bakeries.

On the practical side, we've got a large locksmith, two DIY shops, various corner shops, the paint shop, two bathroom and kitchen suppliers, pharmacies, a joiner, a roofer, window and door shops, picture framers, hair dressers, dry cleaners, the cobbler, fishmonger, butcher, independent grocers, two vets, acupuncturists, beauty salons, beauty shops, the library, estate agents (too many), barbers, two gyms, physiotherapists, yoga and Pilates studios, paid squash courts, tennis clubs, baby classes, the kitchen supply store, gift shops, home decor shops etc etc etc

[LondonMix]

Yes, I know but I take the chance to say that on every thread like this in case Nando's corporate are monitoring mentions of their name online. Just putting it out into the universe!

Jeremy Wrote:

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> It obviously won't be a Nando's - although we'd

> certainly use it...

[TheArtfulDogger]

In regards to this thread, I'm loving it.....

Could we be getting our own Golden Arches or maybe even a honest burger... Who knows but I too will be sad to see Londis go as it is occasionally useful when getting off the bus at some small hour of the morning and realising you don't have milk, bread or beans for that late night supper (never sure that combination when mixed with beer is a good idea but that's a different thread that we can all get blown away by)

Guess those who live nearby can put in an objection, but ultimately Londis have possibly decided it's an unprofitable site and someone with money has put an offer in Which means they think they can make it work in the area. Will be interested to see who but would be saddened if it is a coffee Bar chain as I can't see the need for another one

[DulwichFox]

Cafe... Will it retain the 24hr status.. ? lol.

Foxy

[LondonMix]

It's not a cafe or fast food.

Meat Liquor is moving on to Lordship Lane though if you want a fancy burger.

[Grok]

JoeLeg Wrote:

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> But the small independents, or small chains, are

> different. They face the exactly the same market

> forces as the big boys, but don't have the

> corporate back up, purchasing power, marketing

> power or cash reserves. They will make roughly the

> same profit margins, but as I say, they're all

> faced with the same market forces, labour costs,

> energy bills, business rates and so on.

>

Everyone has energy bills. All businesses have rates, labour costs, overheads and stock costs!

> Essentially my answer to your question is that a

> lot of people think running a coffee shop or a

> cafe is easy or romantic or fun. The reality is

> that 80%-90% of start ups don't last 12 months,

> usually because people don't realise how much it

> costs to run a business like that. Cafes - of any

> type - are no more or less of a money maker than

> bistro's, burger bars or fine dining. But it's

> easy to look at them and think they are.

Businesses fail because lack of business accumen, wrong product wrong place, crap service etc.

>

> I'm probably coming across sounding patronising

> and I don't mean to - but this is my job and I get

> quite intense about it. I understand why people

> think we must all be making money hand over fist -

> and there are some who rise to the top and coin

> it. But for the vast majority of us it's much,

> much harder.

I agree with Foxy, the mark up on food is massive, bad businesses go, good ones stay. If you are so not making a progit and times are so hard then get a salaried job. But no, you wouldnt make anywhere near as much. You never hear a businessman, especially a restranteur or publican ever say how great business is and how well theyre doing. Always hear the opposite though. Yeah yeah.

[JoeLeg]

Grok, I'm not going to bother with you past saying this.

You don't know what you're talking about. You just don't. I could throw all the figures at you and demonstrate my point but I doubt you'd listen.

I agree that all industries face costs, I agree that everyone faces challenges. Every industry faces its own set of unique challenges, and you've demonstrated quote neatly that you have no understanding of those encountered in hospitality. So no, I don't feel the need to pay your ill-informed, arrogant and offensive opinions any heed, or care that you think all of us are lazy and ripping you off while making huge profits, that you obviously reckon we're lying about. The mark ups are huge (as I say, 3 to 4 times what we pay for it), because it's the only way you can cover costs. Feel free to disagree, but I'll bet you've never been in charge of a restaurant GP or had to make a pub profitable or keep a coffee shop in business.

[indiepanda]

LondonMix Wrote:

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> I use that Londis fairly regularly. It has the

> widest magazine selection of the various shops.

> That is all I go in there for though.

The post office on Forest Hill Road has a better selection of magazines, though if you don't happen to live over that side of East Dulwich I appreciate that's not much consolation.

[titch juicy]

Londis is genuinely useful and I use it regularly. Will be very sad to see it go.

[Mick Mac]

LondonMix Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I use that Londis fairly regularly. It has the

> widest magazine selection of the various shops.

> That is all I go in there for though.

>

> I'd love a Nandos! Looking at how small this is

> though, I'm not sure its large enough for most

> chain restaurants like that.

At a rough count its over 100 covers - surely that's big enough for most chains? could be anything at that size I'd say.

[Mick Mac]

I know a restaurant on LL that has overheads of ?20k per week and seeks to make 25k+ turnover per week to make a minimum 5k profit.

Its good if you can manage that target - but the 20k of costs is a very big risk if it doesn't work out. its certainly not an easy option. don't get involved unless you are brave, know what you are doing and have deep pockets for the start up costs.