Breast Feeding in shops

[PeteOverhill]

I am very late to this thread so if someone could get me up to speed - there's this guy William Rose and he's been going around breast-feeding? Somebody called Nero?

[Domitianus]

Fantastic! Wonderful to know that I have "given away" all the secrets I never knew I had. I just hope that James doesn't invoice me for his counselling services!!! I now have an Oedipus Complex (despite the fact that the very concept was pretty much consigned to the garbage pail by all but the most ardent Freudians many moons ago) and find the sight of a woman breast-feeding a sexual turn-on. These are things I didn't even know about myself but am glad that the perceptive psychological minds out there are able to determine these things from the postings I have made. BTW, ever heard of the saying "Perception is projection"? For your information, I do not find women breast-feeding a sexual turn-on. If I did I would have much less objection to it. Again we have a damned if I do, damned if I don't situation here. If I am perceived to object to BFing on basis of having hang-ups about women's breasts, I have a problem - If I do like women's breasts I have a problem. Would I be ok if I admitted to being indifferent about women's breasts or would that make me confused and ambiguous? Reminds me of the old joke about Freudian group therapy. If you turn up early you are anxious. If you turn up on time you are obsessive. If you turn up late you are hostile. No win situation. So cut the psychobabble James you clearly don't know what you are talking about and are throwing in jargon terms to try and dismiss the person not the arguement.

As for reminding you of Islamists who want to hide women away, I am amazed that you can even allow yourself to be associated with such an absurd statement. And you accuse me of making tenuous connections between BFing and other activities??? I guess you will be accusing me of being like Hitler next which is always another popular arguement for people who can't debate the issues. Now, to the only arguements you make.

"1) A Baby is not a dog. A baby feeding in a restaurant is socially acceptable whereas a dog eating in a restaurant would be a different matter. Obviously."

No, a baby is not a dog. Dogs do however FEED and this was the critical issue you said was at the heart of the matter. If FEEDING is an inherently acceptable activity then you should have no objection to feeding a dog in a restaurant. You clearly are drawing a distinction between types of feeding - so am I. As for BFing in public being "socially acceptable" - you are engaged in circular reasoning, ie. citing as evidence the very issue that is under dispute. Effectively you are saying "Breast feeding in public is socially acceptable because BFing a baby in public is socially acceptable." Completely specious arguement. It is also patently obvious (and you seem to like things hat are 'obvious', obviously!) that BFing in public is NOT regarded in any universal way as being socially acceptable. The staff at William Rose appear to have found it highly embarrassing, I find it inappropriate in certain circumstances and there appear to be a number of contributors to this thread who agree. There is clearly therefore not any type of universal consensus on the matter. Your arguement simply redounds to some variety of "well everybody knows that...." or "all reasonable people think..." etc etc. An appeal to the nebulous "they" or "all reasonable people" is a completely barren arguement.

"2) Signs on public transport are because take-aways smell and litter is usually left. Breast feeding a baby causes neither of these issues."

In other words some eating habits offend the senses of smell in circumstances - just as BFing will offend some people who do not wish to have to watch it or think of it. The sense through which such people will be offended may be a different one - the sense of sight. Are the people on the tube or bus with their KFC entitled to say to others "I have to eat. Hold your nose if you don't like it. Don't look at the litter." According to you that would be acceptable for them to say. Furthermore, the notion that feeding babies cannot create smells or litter is absurd. Have you never seen a baby being fed which is then winded by the mother to belch and fart to her satisfaction? Have you never seen a child that is being fed regurgitate some of the milk? I certainly have seen both of these things on a number of occasions and it is unappealing when one is eating or drinking. That would seem to me to be "obvious"! Have you never seen a mother who is feeding her child lift it to her face-level to sniff the nappy to see if the child needs changing? I certainly have and it is enough to put many people off their food.

"3) Personal grooming. Again, like urinating etc. this is not comparable to feeding a baby. You have no need to do this in public whereas a mother may need to feed her baby during the day."

Personal grooming IS comparable to BFing in that it is a behaviour that most people feel is appropriate but may not wish to watch in a food service environment and it would be tactful for the person doing it to do it discretely or somewhere else.

BTW I have turned down the invitation to run for President as politics is not conducive to being able to speak unpopular truths that offend the sanctified notions of the politically correct. ALso I have debated at the Oxford Union and also the Cambridge Union but that was many years ago.

[Domitianus]

Omigod! Just realised I used the phrase "many moons ago"! I guess our neo-Freudians will tell me that means I have an obsession with women's menstrual cycles!

[Domitianus]

Oh...and...I never for one moment suggested that the world revolves around me. Unfortunately there are those who seem to think that the world revolves around pregnant women and mothers of small children to the extent that everyone else's interests are expected to take second place to the afore-mentioned who are regarded as being beyond reproach and above criticism. It's a bloody good job we are not following the example of lions, hippos or chimps - they actually murder the offspring of other couples that compete for resources. Now....there's an idea!

[Verona]

Domitianus, can i try to get something straight? someone else saw one woman breastfeeding a bit indiscreetly in Caffe Nero and you have written a confessional diatribe about it. Nice sense of proportion.

[Domitianus]

Perhaps Verona, if you look at the full thread you will see I have actually been responding to points and allegations made by others. I think the only "confession" I have made is that I think there is a time and place for BFing and that I like women's breasts. I am quite happy to get these two matters off my chest(again, no pun intended). Perhaps your comments could also be addressed to the others who have joined in this debate?

[Asset]

Does the fact that you like them mean they should be kept hidden at all times apart from when it pleases you? Just wondering, no offence intended etc etc.

[Steph]

Fat Happy Chappy I have only just looked at this thread and was litrally on the floor laughing at your post - I only wish id seen it earlier. I would have legged it round there and would have no doubt laughed some more.

[AfricanQueen]

We arrived from Nairobi last March 2006 where homosexuality is a criminal offense punishable by torture, imprisonment and in some cases, death. We do not have a cafe culture in Nairobi, but if we did have such a thing, my children would be feeding at my breasts there because we are not homosexuals or criminals. I am not good with words but I am not happy to see angry people talking so much to hurt women and homosexuals who are just happy.

[FatHappyChappy]

Hello African Queen? welcome to the Lounge. Nairobi is an amazing place, I was there on business back in 1986. I am also aware that homosexuality is treated as a serious crime, not through experience I hasten to add very quickly. Are you saying that you feel people in this lounge treat women breast feeding their babies in a public place like homosexuals? I am treading carefully here as I think I kind of get where you are coming from, you just need to elaborate more, I can't wait, you could start an amazing addition to this thread, either intentionally or unintentionally, keep going? If you are my Queen, I am your slave.

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

Dom - Lions don't tend to live in couples, and I don't think chimps or hippos do either.

Baby's need feeding all through the day and can't be left at home like dogs or you'll get arrested.

Public transport - if the baby is bawling, I'm sure the passengers would prefer the mum to stick a tit in it's mouth and shut it up than leave it to scream.

Personal grooming - most people would just do that stuff at a time where there is some privacy because it's not actually necessary to do it in public unless you accidentally sh@t or pi@s yourself (maybe you should invest in some daddy pampers Dom).

I think no-one can be justified in telling any woman not to feed her baby in public, by breast or bottle, but I do think this is not actually about breastfeeding at all (except for Dom who just seems repressed).

I think it has more to do with some women trying to make a statement or just using it as an excuse to be aggressive or exhibitionist and condemning anyone who wants to tackle their aggressive or exhibitionist behaviour. I personally think these type of women are funny and more than a bit repressed themselves, and this is why something which is no big deal comes over as artificial and attention seeking.

[cowbearuk]

African Queen, I need to validate your entry....please tell me what the following words means in your language and I will respond:-

Isikhulu?

Amasi?

Ibeshu?

[AfricanQueen]

Hello Cowbear, you must be a wealthy man to own cows here in London, where do you keep them? Isikhulu means great one, Amasi is a curdled milk which some women give to children if the breasts are not forgiving milk too much and Ibeshu is for a men to wear because it is a flap pants made from calf skin to cover the buttocks. I think it is good you can say some words from Nairobi but these words are from Zulu language but I am still happy that you know some too.

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

Isikhulu

http://africanhistory.about.com/library/glossary/bldef-isiKhulu.htm

Amasi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amasi

Ibeshu

http://africanhistory.about.com/library/glossary/bldef-iBeshu.htm

So does that mean I'm African too??

[Domitianus]

Some wise words there ChavWivaLawDegree. I am certainly not trying to tell anyone what to do or not to do in public. I am pointing out that when one is in a public place there are the feelings of others to consider and that, certainly from the postings on this board, there are at least a significant number of people who feel that in certain environments BFing is something that causes discomfort and embarrassment. If people wish to ignore that fact and continue to assert their "right to breast-feed" whilst trampelling over the rights of others to be able to eat, drink, purchase food etc without being confronted by something that they might feel a bit distatsteful then they will be able to do so but can't really complain if other people think they are being b***dy selfish and anti-social. There are a great many things that people have the freedom and the right to do but who perhaps voluntarily waive that right in defference to other people's sensibilities. Things such as f***ing, burping, spitting and cursing might be fine between a bunch of friends in a pub corner but might be toned down a bit if a woman joined the group or if a Salvation Army collector passed their table selling the Watchtower (do they still do that?)

AfricanQueen mentions the fact that in her home country BFing is completely normal and so is vilification of homosexuality. Whilst I disagree strongly with the latter persecution she nonethless makes an interesting point and that is one of context. Behaviour that may be generally encouraged and acceptable in certain places (for example, one country or culture)is not necessarily universally appropriate. Someone mentioned earlier that folk will be jetting off on holiday to sunnier cimes where breasts will be on display left right and centre. EXACTLY! It is appropriate in some locations but not on others and from my own holidays abroad I can say that whilst it may be acceptable to go topless on the beach (and I am very happy to see such toplessness - oh no, there are my Oedipal "issues" popping out again!), one would be expected to dress more conservatively in the hotel or street. Context is paramount. Go to Brighton and you can frolick naked on the nudist beach but go up and down the Lanes in the nude and you will get arrested.

If people wish to flaunt their right to BF anywhere they choose, then I can't do anything about it. But if that's in front of me when I am in Nero or wherever, sure as H**L don't expect me to smile, pretend to condone it, pretend to be impressed or avert my gaze. And if I choose to play my MP3 at high volume, fart, burp or pick my nose, don't expect to get a sympathetic response if you ask me to stop!

[Domitianus]

By way of an example - I was sitting recently in the garden of a local cafe having a coffee with a friend. It was Sunday so rather hot. I said to my friend "Would it be inappropriate for me to take my shirt off and sit here topless?" He replied that it might not be completely appropriate in the location - so I sat there and sweltered. Now I have been told that I have a reasonably well-toned and athletic body and don't have any particularly hideous skin diseases on my torso, so I can safely assume that my exposed body would not have elicited cries of horror. Certainly it would not have been unlawful or immoral for me to reveal my upper body, but out of respect for those around me who might have felt that a cafe was not the sort of place to bare one's chest - I desisted. That is the type of courtesy I am talking about.

[Scruffy Mummy]

This thread has reminded me why I never visit this forum anymore - I was only lured back by a friend who told me about this thread! I have to say I have never met anywoman who has set out to be deliberatly exhibtionist while breastfeeding her baby - sometimes though, I know that particuarly in the first few weeks when I was getting the hang of the whole breastfeeding thing and didn't quite sort out the easier tops to where when breastfeeding I probably showed abit more boob than neccessary - not because I was trying to be assertive or a militant breastfeeder - I was just bloodly knackered, and in a fog with a little creature who seemed to want to be fed constantly.

Two points I'd like to make - I used to work with people with learning difficulties and we would go out on outings to cafe's and other public places. Sometimes we'd get dirty looks from other people because people feel uncomfortable with people with learning disablities and sometimes our clients would do harmless but socially unacceptable things (eating with mouth open, making strange noises). Should, like years ago, people with disablities just stay inside because some people say eating in a cafe with people with disablities puts them off their food??

Also, many moons ago, as a student, I worked in a public library part time. Many people came into the library - mums with babies (and sometimes the babies had pooey nappies), older people with in-continence problems, homeless people who weren't able to shower. Did we library staff get outraged and write to local papers (the equivalent of web forums today) about smelly people? No we did not. We smiled and got on with serving everyone - because ultimately, smelly people aren't hurting anyone.

You may ask what this has to due with this debate - and it is this. I doubt many of you complaining will be a tired out breastfeeding mum someday in the future. BUT, I can guarentee that someday in the far future, some of you people moaning about how a burping baby or a tired out breastfeeding mum will be that older person who has dementia or has gone incontinent or you might become disabled. Wouldn't you like to be treated with kindness and understanding by our children (who we are now breastfeeding) instead of mocked and ridiculed?? Just think about how you want to be treated by the next generation before you want to banish them and their knackered mums to room 101!!!

[Ganapati]

Domitianus--your posts are beginning to frighten me, you really need another hobby. And Keef, seriously, how can you think or even imply that women breastfeed because its "trendy"??? Do you know how difficult it can actually be, and what a pain in the arse it can be for some women. Mothers seem to get no end of abuse these days. If it's not the medical community exhorting women to breastfeed because breast is best and making those who do not feel as if they are poisoning their children with formula , then it's members of the public comparing feeding a child to feeding a dog, or to taking a shit or pissing and criticizing them for being exhibitionists or trendy yummy mummys. And can we stop with that silly phrase? WTF is a yummy mummy anyway? It's some ridiculous media-made label that applies to perhaps .01 percent of the real population. I hope this woman doesn't stop--let her breasts hang out and her baby eat/drink away. Some men make me laugh, they really do, they want boobs on their own terms. But once it's out of their comfort zone, then somehow that woman who has dared to "expose" herself is an exhibitionist nutjob.

[FatHappyChappy]

STEPH, sorry I made you laugh so much, why don't we cut through all this crap and go for coffee at

Nero's? I am sure we would both laugh our tits off, especially as mine are probably twice the size

of yours. I am unemployed at the moment (not because of my weight I hasten to add), but I'll get the

coffees if you get the shortbread, or we could sneak a box in from Iceland? I will now get told off

"this isn't a chat room" I can hear them all scream!! Oh well. going on my own 8:30 am with camera

phone this time, just to spice up the thread with a REAL picture. I'll blank out the face, just like

they do in those readers wives magazines, not that I have read any I hasten to add. I changed my

Birkenstocks in ED's yesterday, they haven't seen this woman on their premises yet.....can you imagine

breast feeding AND buying scented candles at the same time.....cool. Bye for now FHC

[cowbearuk]

Hi CWALD, of course it doesn't mean you are African, just well educated and obviously degree material. Mind you, African AND with a law degree, you could then give Diane Abbott a run for her money, or better still, run her over. It's just I think our African Queen is really from Dorset, not Nairobi. I could be wrong?

[Asset]

somewhat random premise for a wind up though wouldn't you say CBUK?

[Domitianus]

I am both sorry and surprised that asking people to consider the feelings of others in certain rather specific situations and act with a bit of discretion is "frightening". All I can say, Ganapati, is that you are easily scared. In terms of other less-fortunate people being taken to visit cafes, using libraries etc - I myself have helped escort groups with Parkinson's Disease on outings and understand what is being talked about. There is a vast difference, however, in the level of choice that exists. A BFing mother can easily be a little more discrete than often appears to be the case, just as many of those afflicted with disability would give almost anything to have the health and ability to make such choices that a BFing mother has. So I see no real comparison.

As for Keef's posting about some women BFing because it's trendy - I see no reason to be amazed at that. Fashion conscious people do a great many stranger things because it is trendy, I am gobsmacked if you haven't noticed this. Things such as actually HAVING a child, or getting married, because "all my friends are doing it". Adopting a child from overseas because Madonna and Angelina Jolie are doing it. Buying a house because everyone else is getting on the property ladder. Having a Caesarean without any medical necessity because the magazines say that the 'beautiful people' are all Too Posh to Push!

As for my postings about other bodily functions - this is a process called 'chunking up', ie. identifying other things of a similar 'type' to see if we would apply the same rules to them. I think it has been seen that we clearly wouldn't so the test of "it's natural and necessary", which has been advanced in support of universal BFing falls flat on its face.

I would also like to express my amazement at the nature of the attacks thrown at me. Apparently I am harbouring all sorts of repressed coflicts, fixations, obsessions, hostilities and am also "scary" - all because I have had the 'afrontery' to say that there are ertain circumstances in which I think it is ill-considered of women to overtly breast feed. Wonderful to see people address the issues instead of attacking the individual - NOT! I would point out that my general view, if not specific arguements, on this matter is apparently shared by at least the following - Cowbear (who initiated the thread), hoards of kids outside Nero, Ondine (I assume the posting "ditto" indicated agreement with Cowbear's original post), TillieTrotter, the staff of William Rose and a close friend of mine who immediately grimaced at the mention of BFing in a cafe. I am sure there are many more. I can only assume that they are all also fixated, repressed, obsessed, hostile to women (including TT, who says she breast fed herself) and "scary".

I guess I shouldn't worry too much about getting this kind of flak though. When people have to resort to such ad hominum attacks and affectations of shocked disbelief ("scary", "speechless" etc) it usually means they have lost the arguement. In the words of Oscar Wilde "Please don't agree with me. When people agree with me I become convinced I must be wrong."

That, unless I am grossly provoked, is all I have to say on this matter.

[Ganapati]

Thank god! Was wondering when you were going to shut up on the matter. Starting out, I actually agreed with your original point, but now I hope all breast freeding women just let it all hang out. Why not? Don't we see enough skimpily clad women? Don't see anyone being offended by them, or at least no enough to spawn such a vitriolic thread. Wonder what the William Rose boys would have done if a woman wearing a revealing top were to walk in--bet you your house they wouldn't have been shocked and offended. Case in point, the Topless Bus thread has 4 posts, this one has over four pages. You're frightening because of your amazing viciousness of tone on the subject--why not aim abuse at more worthy transgressions? For example, people who drive with their mobiles and cause accidents? You come across as very cynical and rather sad--as if all the world were just made up of sheep like people following fashion trends to get in people's faces. Ever thought that people might want to have children? Might want to have a house in nice area? ED wouldn't exist as it is today if someone hadn't heard from someone else that it was a nice area to live. Just a thought--maybe it's time for a holiday?

As a point of amusement, people might want to check out this story in the New York Times. Written by a British woman who is uncomfortable with the American mothers getting their tits out for their babies--and I always thought it was the Americans who were the prudes. http://tinyurl.com/2zryhp

[James]

Well obviously I have touched a nerve Domitianus. Hence the diatribe. You sound like you are losing the plot. And yes, I really do think you have issues which some form of therapy might help.

To summarise, you're saying that breast-feeding in public is like:

Farting

Burping

Picking your nose

Playing an MP3 at high volume

Spitting

Cursing

Going shirtless in a restaurant

Here's an analogy for you to get your head round. Careful now, read it slowly and concentrate:

A baby breast-feeding is a bit like a person eating. Only it's a baby*... (Yes, I know, this bit's complicated, stay with me though) getting their food the way nature intended.

I tell you what, instead of everyone who offends you so much by feeding their babies having to scuttle away and hide, how about we have a reserved area for people like you in cafes and restaurants? Preferably at the back so you don't offend anyone walking past? Or even better, you could just stay at home, or eat your meal in a toilet cubicle?

*A baby is a little person who can't eat solid food yet.

[Ganapati]

Well said James!