Breast Milk STINKS...............apparently

[Keef]

The way in which they mebtioned the piercings didn't come across as just descriptive to me. It seemed more like an effort to brand him in some way.

[Magpie]

Looks like the lynch mob wins - well done everyone hope you feel proud

[cate]

Sillywoman, I said it would have been polite for her to ask to use the changing room. Same as if she had been using a bottle. She was blocking a changing room. What is wrong with being polite? It's not like there is a surfeit of changing rooms there. Politeness costs nothing. And why is this woman's sister in law starting a new post which has now been locked? As someone else said it's a pitchfork response.

edited due to missing letter

[KalamityKel]

Quite right cate

[Keef]

Word! I tried responding to the other thread, but was too slow. It's just turning something to their advantage without a seconds thought for the potential damage done to either an individual or a charity. It stinks, even if breast milk doesn't.

[The Nappy Lady]

Do you ask permission before blowing you nose in a changing room Cate?

For a breastfeeding mother feeding a child for 2 minutes is just as instinctive and reactive. I have no doubt that had the shop been busy and people waiting that she would not have used the changing room in this way, but it wasn't, so she used her common sense, something that seems to be lacking in many of the posts on here.

I would LOVE for some of the 'anti' brigade on here to have charge of a baby for the day and go out shopping with a bottle, (as the closest option), to be treated as if breastfeeding and see how you get on, I think you would find it quite enlightening.

We may as well lock this thread now too because quite honestly the debate could go on and on and those who refuse to understand the nature of breastfeeding, and have no personal experience of it are never, ever going to change their views or begin to understand what it is like. Sad but true. No doubt if she'd left the baby crying in a buggy while she finished trying on/shopping there would be people posting about 'how annoying it is to have to put up with screaming babies in all the shops in ED these days'.

I am shocked and saddened by many of the posts on here as I really thought that in general people were supportive of breastfeeding. It is really sad to think that people are so negative about such a natural human process.

I don't know why anyone is taking notice of an article in the Daily Mail. It is a 'rag' and nothing more, personally I wouldn't waste my time on it.

I am sorry that the story has gone so far, in as much as I believe MIND were acting upon the incident and will put things right in due course. I do hope that their work does not suffer long term - personally I doubt it will as I am sure they have very effective PR, and judging by my mother's work with charity shops they are mostly swamped by donations. I am sure they will deal with the matter in a suitable way and that the shop Manager will not suffer unduly for his actions (nor would I want him to). At worst he may have to go through some kind of hearing, but more likely they will just provide him with some guidance, or maybe training. Again, I don't see any lynch mob, nor anyone screaming for his resignation/sacking......but I guess there will be those on here who want to try to turn this around and make 'localmama' look like the baddy in all of this.

I still say Steve behaved wrongly, and so there will be inevitable consequences. I hope they will not be too severe, but had he not behaved as he did none of this would have happened, so why are people trying to make him the victim? Is there anyone here who actually thinks it is acceptable to spray an aerosal at a mother and 2 small children, and to verbally abuse them......really???????

Molly

[Fuschia]

cate Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Sillywoman, I said it would have been polite for

> her to ask to use the changing room.

I understood she was actually already in the changing room, changing! I have fed my babies lots of times in changing rooms. I regard myself as quite confident, but I can't see me asking a male shopkeeper if it's Ok to breastfeed! I'd feel very awkward.

[Belle]

While I can't remember a particular time where i ended up giving my baby the bottle in a changing room it's entirely possible I have, and I certainly would with any future children if they suddenly got screamy while I was mid-change. As others have said if the alternative is leaving them to cry you're likely to offend people that way too...and yes, it is like blowing your nose/reading a text someone sent you while you're in there/taking a few minutes to sort your hair since you've seen what a mess it is in the mirror...all of which are actually much less pressing than a hungry baby really.

[Ted Max]

I am shocked and saddened by many of the posts on here as I really thought that in general people were supportive of breastfeeding. It is really sad to think that people are so negative about such a natural human process.

I can't see one post that is not supportive of breastfeeding, Molly, never mind "many".

I can see some that express concern about possible implications of the way this thing has gone public.

[KalamityKel]

"Do you ask permission before blowing you nose in a changing room Cate?"

The Nappy Lady is there a particular reason you choose to be so defensive against cate's comments? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion whether you agree with it or not.

My perception of this thread now is quite the opposite to what you are suggesting The Nappy Lady. It generally supports the attitude (no I'm personally not interested in the silly grumbles of "let those who don't have children or are anti breast feeding brigade..." blah blah blah so please don't come back with that) that breast feeding should be allowed where ever and when ever a mother chooses regardless of the situation (again purely a reflection of particular posts already existing on here).

I'm not saying the whole issue is wrong however, except perhaps on the reporting in regards to the Daily Mail - is it fair to publically lynch someone in such a manner BEFORE Mind has had the opportunity to investigate and deal with the situation in the appropriate way?

How much exaggeration has there been? How far from the facts has the whole story been diverted? It is easy with the retelling of a story/incident things can get distorted by the mind of an individual especially when angered.

There are many things that could/should have been done on both sides (the mother envolved and member of staff) but surely is there such a need to blow the whole thing up in the way you are choosing to by claiming this whole thread, based on a couple of comments (however you personally choose to perceive them), is against mothers and breast feeding?

Everything has it's place. People are entitled to their own opinion and should be able to express them without the fear of being jumped on.

There is much about this thread that I disagree with but I'm not offended by the comments thrown around.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

I most certainly would not be asking if I could have permission to breast feed my baby in a changing room if I am already in the changing room trying on clothes. It is just instincts to feed your baby when they cry for food, I most certainly don't think " Should I ask permission first?" I think " Oh dear, baby is crying, where can I sit to feed baby?" I think it is absolutely sad that people think we should ask for permission to do what is natural. She was already in the changing room, and if she wants to text, fart, feed her baby etc whilst she is already in the changing room then she can. It is not like she was having a picnic there, her baby was hungry, she fed her baby, end of. If people don't like it, don't look because there is a lot of things I don't like when it comes to people ( how they dress, their attitude, the foul language they use etc in public) but I don't sit there saying " They should ask me for permission to see if I am ok with it!" I just avoid them. Boobs are NOT for sexual gratifications , they are for feeding our youngs, end of. I do believe in trying to feed as discreetly as possible as it can be uncomfortable to get a flash of nipple and boobs ( though sometimes we cannot help it when you have babies trying to tug at your clothes and being nosey looking around thus exposing us) but she was in a changing room being discreet.

What a sad world we live in when we cannot do what is natural for fear of upsetting people who clearly have issues.

[Keef]

You beat me to it Ted. I can't see one single post that is "anti" breastfeeding.

[sillywoman]

Justified anger is not a pitchfork response. Cate; as someone else has said, she wasn't blocking the changing room - she was trying on jumpers. Please read the original posts which explain the whole situation.

Lovely post Molly. And, yes there are a few dinosaurs on here who don't seem to think it appropriate for a woman (or man?) to feed their baby in a shop without asking some sort of permission. To you guys I would say; it's nothing to do with good manners, the nose blowing analogy is a good one. You sound like you really need to examine your attitudes to how the needs of babies are met in our society, you're coming across as 'sprayers' yourselves. I do wonder how many of you have tried shopping with young babies/ toddlers?

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

Its not the anti breastfeeding, it is the " she should have asked for permission" why? she is ALREADY in the changing room trying on clothes, so why does she needs to ask permission? I have lost track the amount of times I have been in the changing room, and decided to do my make up or text a friend etc, is that wrong since I am no longer trying on clothes? so what is the big deal about the fact she did not ask for permission?

[Keef]

I also don't think there are any posts supporting the actions of the staff members. I also think that it is poor form to more or less say "you haven't breastfed, so your opinion is less valid". My wife breast feeds, and hopes to become a BF counsellor, but her response to this was VERY different to many on here.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

All I know is Keef, that us breastfeeding mums cannot just whip a bottle out, prop it up against a blanket in the pram so baby can feed whilst we carry on doing what we are doing. Breast feeding is hard enough as it is, without someone saying we need to ask permission and so on. We already have to leave our babies crying for a bit whilst we try and find somewhere comfortable to sit and try to be discreet. It would be so much easier to feed baby formula because they can be fed absolutely anywhere without offending anyone but breast fed babies already have to wait whilst we get comfortable and God forbid not offend anyone whilst we are at it. My son will cry and cry and cry when he is hungry, he will not wait at all and whilst he is crying the last thing on my mind would be " I better get permission to feed my son".

[Ted Max]

Its not the anti breastfeeding, it is the " she should have asked for permission"

Fair enough. I see no need for her to have asked permission.

I was responding to this

I am shocked and saddened by many of the posts on here as I really thought that in general people were supportive of breastfeeding. It is really sad to think that people are so negative about such a natural human process.

because I think it's a misrepresentation of this thread. Why do I care? Because it got on my tits. That is all.

[sillywoman]

Ted Max Wrote:

Why do I care? Because it got on my tits.

> That is all.

Very good Ted Max :))

[woofmarkthedog]

fabwoman Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Vanessa Feltz included this incident on her phone

> in on GLR this morning. I hadn't read it on the

> forum, but my ears pricked up when I heard "East

> Dulwich" and "the Mind shop". Unfortunately I had

> to go out, so didn't hear any of the

> contributions. I was shocked and angry when I read

> the thread on EDF. My children are in their teens

> now, but why does this debate keep on rolling

> around. Most women are discreet when they breast

> feed and why can society not accept that it is a

> perfectly natural thing to do. It's a shame but I

> will be reluctant to donate or spend money in that

> shop.

------------------------------------------------------

They had one of the Directors from MIND on the Vanessa show today

He appologised in a corporate & roundabout way

He did say the manager had in this instance he'd over steeped the mark

Did you listen to the show today, I only caught the odd parts

W**F

[Keef]

Okay, this may be my last post on here, as some people just seem to refuse to see past their own interests.

I admit that the asking permission thing is an aside, and a woman shouldn't "have to", but at the same time, it might be nice if on occasion, she "decided to". That however is not really the point here.

NOONE has been anti breast feeding. In fact, there has been overwhealming support for it. It is incredibly poor form, and self serving to try and dismiss people's arguments, by effectively dismissing them as some biggoted "anti brigade".

NOONE has supported the actions of the staff members in the MIND shop. Most people have said very clearly that the actions were out of order, and expressed sympathy with the woman in question.

HOWEVER...

This situation was being dealt with directly with MIND, and they were responding, and expressing concern over it. However, before this could be resolved in an adult, and responsible way, someone has given it to the nasty scummers that "write" for the Mail, and it's found it's way on to the radio.

As a result, a man has had his name and photograph published, and frankly, yes, he is now the biggest "victim" in all of this! He made a big error of judgement, something which everyone on this forum and in the world has done, or will do in their lives. I just hope that all of you don't end up in the fecking newspaper when your turn comes.

Next thing he'll get beaten up by some enlightened soul who thinks he's a pervert or something.

Christ, I feel like I'm living in bloody Sidcup!!!

Keef out.

[helena handbasket]

I don't think most people on this thread are anti breast feeding. I know I'm not and this thread has really made me uncomfortable.

I don't think this "forum as jury" is morally right. This man may have mental health issues, nobody knows HIS story, and for all we know this job is his connection to functional living. Many people with such illnesses are just trying to get through the day and aren't thinking about their social skills or the politics of motherhood. I assume Mind hires these people because they have more difficulty finding and keeping jobs, and their mandate is to allow them to be productive and have a sense of achievement in what can otherwise be a very difficult life. Anybody who has loved someone with a mental illness will understand how badly this could go for this man. Charity doesn't begin and end with dropping off our clothes and picking up a cheap sweater.

He has now been publicly made a villain, and this might actually be the community he and his family live in. I don't agree with the original issue, I think he was wrong, but as I have watched this unfold I have felt a real sense of shame that I continue to read it.

I don't think the crime fits the punishment. And I don't think EDF has the right to be judge and jury.

This incident should have been between the people involved and Mind.

[KalamityKel]

(tu)

[Keef]

Very well said Helena, much more eloquent than my post.

[sillywoman]

As I said in a previous post to Keef, Helenahandbasket, you could be right about the media in society thing. But, the moral implications of people discussing their feelings and perceptions of a local incident on a local forum is really another thread all of its own. There's no lynch mob (as Magpie would have it)out for this guy, and no punishment other than for his actions to be made known to a wider audience. The issue for you & Keef seems to be that you don't think this incident should've been discussed on a forum in the first place. Without being rude, I do think that that issue is a sideline to this thread, it's a bit off topic and maybe needs a thread of its own?

As for the man's mental health, well, speculation is pointless, he may have mental health issues? He may be a big softie? he may be a nasty piece of work? We'll probably never know. But whatever he is, or has it doesn't excuse his actions or the attitudes accompanying them to an inoffensive and innocent woman & her children.

The only sense of shame I have over this issue is that there are still members of the community I live in who seem to feel that his actions are justifiable in some way, and the more I & others point out that they're not the less they want to hear it.

[Keef]

So you agree he COULD have mental health issues, yet you still feel that that wouldn't excuse him in any way? Nice, a bit of understanding in the community is always good. Christ on a bike!

Where has anyone said his actions are justifiable by the way?

I think Fatherjack was right at the time of starting this thread. Unfortunately, Fatherjack couldn't have predicted the reactions of some.

Still, whatever the eventual consequeces for this chap, at least you've all shown the world how "right on" and superior you can be about breast feeding, so well done.