Reducing knife crime

[rendelharris]

Jeremy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Alex K - I can't agree with your comment.. by the

> same logic it should be OK to carry guns, for

> target practise and general larking around!!

>

> This isn't a village, kids don't whittle sticks,

> or cheekily cut apples pilfered from the local

> orchard. There's no legitimate reason to carry a

> knife. They are being used as weapons, so that's

> how the law should treat them.

I don't think (apologies for trying to speak on another's behalf) that was the point Alex K was trying to make at all; s/he was making the point that the knives are not the problem, the societal attitudes and the way these children are being raised (not just by their parents but in a culture of violence, selfishness and ill-will) is what must be addressed. Yes people must be stopped from carrying knives, but if all knives vanished overnight they'd still be hitting each other with bricks, 2x4s, broken bottles...the root problems of alienation, disaffection etc need to be addressed and thinking that locking all offenders up and throwing away the key will make much difference won't do that.

[Seabag]

The kids who carry knives know it's a crime, but they know there's other kids carrying knives, so they do it too. They're young, naive, stupid, clever and pretty much any other tag you want to put on them. But they are there, part of our communities and not 'over there' somewhere else, out of the way. They are sons and daughters, they go to your kids schools, inhabit the neighbourhood's we all live in

So now we're past the 'it's a crime' bit, what do we do. Because these kids will carry an knife whatever the outcome of the law, as they're doing it to protect themselves, against someone like themself. So yes, fill up the prisons further, throw away the keys. Only there's not and will never be enough prisons. And the prisons we have are failing to deliver education programmes, because they're so overstretched already. So then what?

Whether you want to engage or not, there is an underlying issue of a group/culture/those who will carry out crimes, including the use of knives on others. And we can't turn a blind eye to it, because we're seeing the outcomes on our streets and it won't stop unless those within that group, culture have the opportunity and support to take the message and model of change into their own communities. And if locking people up worked, how come so many keep being locked up again and again.

Ultimate change must come from within, it is most sucessful through education and the chance to move forwards in life, with knowledge and self determination. But this will always take time, it's slow and people are less than patient. Governments are less than inclined to start or manage the project with a timeline of a generation or more.

It's also expensive, but then so is prison. So what do we want to see? Full prisons that don't work, or action plans and services that spread across multi-agencies and accept that these will take time and effort of some magnitude to deliver.

And ultimately, it's not up to government, it's up to us the community, the people who live here. We vote and we demand, engage with, recoil from what's available. But there is a price, both in money, time and will

[Jeremy]

Yeah but I think it's both. Firstly addressing the root problem - the social problems that lead to children wanting to carry knives and/or commit violence. And secondly the more "physical" step of policing/deterrence.

[richard tudor]

Perhaps actually saying what social strata and culture the problem stems from might be a good first step in solving the problem.

Unfortunately people are afraid to point the finger. Until that happens you can discuss until the cows come home.

[Sue]

richard tudor Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Perhaps actually saying what social strata and

> culture the problem stems from might be a good

> first step in solving the problem.

>

> Unfortunately people are afraid to point the

> finger. Until that happens you can discuss until

> the cows come home.

I'm sure there are statistics readily available.

How exactly would this be a good first step to solving the problem? What are your suggestions?

[Seabag]

I agree Jez, though there has to have a range of services. And those services have to be broad and modern. I am strongly in support of locking up dangerous and violent criminals, but imprisonment needs to offer more than a lack of Liberty. I support a robust justice system along with integrated social programmes to support the normalising of non-offending and community minded behaviour.

I suppose the dream is much like the Fire service. Prevention being the greater part, but action when required. I'm not sure the Police force could ever get that far, but it's got to be worked towards I think

[Seabag]

richard tudor Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Perhaps actually saying what social strata and

> culture the problem stems from might be a good

> first step in solving the problem.

>

> Unfortunately people are afraid to point the

> finger. Until that happens you can discuss until

> the cows come home.

Go on then Rich, where do you want to point your finger ?

[Jeremy]

richard tudor Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Perhaps actually saying what social strata and

> culture the problem stems from might be a good

> first step in solving the problem.

Well I think we all have a pretty good idea of what the main demographic might be, so why the urgent need to spell it out?

[Penguin68]

Although it may be true that there 'is no legitimate reason for a kid to carry a knife' - and even that is moot, there are legitimate reasons for adults, even young adults, to carry them. Not big bladed Bowie knives perhaps, but many artists uses craft knives (necessarily very sharp) for their work or hobby. And jobbing gardeners carry pruning knives. As soon as you start to institute knife carrying as an 'absolute' crime - where the fact that you are found with a knife is sufficient to send you to gaol (albeit after due process) then perfectly legitimate part times or jobs are put in jeopardy.

That is why intent (and mitigation) are important elements in dealing with knife carrying. Legislation cannot be put into place which would exclude the artist or gardener but include only the tear-away.

Having custodial sentences within a judicial armoury is important, as is their use, but having any non discretionary sentence imposed on knife possession offences goes well beyond clumsy.

[Seabag]

Jeremy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> richard tudor Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Perhaps actually saying what social strata and

> > culture the problem stems from might be a good

> > first step in solving the problem.

>

> Well I think we all have a pretty good idea of

> what the main demographic might be, so why the

> urgent need to spell it out?

In my experience the 'them and us' concept hasn't been very helpful

[Jeremy]

Penguin68 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Although it may be true that there 'is no

> legitimate reason for a kid to carry a knife' -

> and even that is moot, there are legitimate

> reasons for adults, even young adults, to carry

> them. Not big bladed Bowie knives perhaps, but

> many artists uses craft knives (necessarily very

> sharp) for their work or hobby. And jobbing

> gardeners carry pruning knives. As soon as you

> start to institute knife carrying as an 'absolute'

> crime - where the fact that you are found with a

> knife is sufficient to send you to gaol (albeit

> after due process) then perfectly legitimate part

> times or jobs are put in jeopardy.

I would hope my blunt sweeping statement "no legitimate reason to carry a knife" would implicitly exclude people carrying tools of the trade to/from a place of work or study. If this is the case it should be either very obvious, or easily provable - and you have nothing to worry about.

[Jeremy]

Seabag Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> In my experience the 'them and us' concept hasn't been very helpful

Yeah that's what I meant... why create that barrier from the start? Even if the problem occurs mainly within a certain demographic, a) is it necessarily constructive to bang on about it, and b) are you at risk of ignoring other groups of kids who could also get drawn into this type of stuff...

[Penguin68]

If this is the case it should be either very obvious, or easily provable - and you have nothing to worry about.

Once there is an absolute offence of 'carrying and being in possession of a knife in a public place' then mitigation ('tools of the trade or hobby') falls by the way-side. The Law in England doesn't acknowledge 'implicitly'. The Napoleonic code would, but both Common and Statute Law don't. [Which is why the EU Competition Law (Articles 85 & 86) in the Treaty of Rome is in two paragraphs, each about 150 words long, whereas the UK Competition Act runs to many pages of tortuous prose].

[Seabag]

Just to be clear, the 'them and us' concept hasn't worked well for any community, or law enforcement service. It's less than helpful when one group see's the other group as the enemy of some kind. Black, White, Brown, Police and the youth and so on

I've seen first hand how this hinders the solving and prosecution of a crime. And it hinders cohesion in all of those that want to make a difference, to help and contribute to a lawful outcome.

I went to a public meeting when a boy was killed in my area, and was utterly appalled by the self serving crap that came out of people's mouths. Age doesn't equate wisdom, tho some elders might assume it does.

I spoke openly and privately with the police, and the message was much the same: if you have information, then share it. It's the only way crime will be solved. The trouble is that people have thier agendas and reasons not to share and be stigmatised by the crimes within their communities. And locking people up will only happen if all the information is gathered and made good use of

But, what I did witness was the power of getting all strands and members of the community to attend the meetings. I saw people of all ages, colour, along with the police (who took some very strong comments) and the youth team in our area.

And once people mixed, had the ability to express their mistrust, then to then grow that trust once based on our common aim, then even the most reluctant stepped up and helped. Some eventually went to court and help successfully prosecute the case, and I'd not thought I'd see that at the begining

How the crime evolved to a boy killing another, is in itself tragic, pathetic and ultimately futile. But the after effects of that nite will be felt and known first hand by many, young, old, black, white etc . And I don't want to say the boy didn't die in vain, because he did. But there were lessons learned and lives changed, and the experiences will effect the outcomes of those who witnessed it, and live with it.

What I'm trying to say is 'we are them and they are us' and it will change, if we somehow will and can contribute to that change

[rendelharris]

richard tudor Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Perhaps actually saying what social strata and

> culture the problem stems from might be a good

> first step in solving the problem.

>

> Unfortunately people are afraid to point the

> finger. Until that happens you can discuss until

> the cows come home.

Would one be correct in assuming that you are pointing the finger at the black community? If so why don't you have the guts to say it and then we can debate the issue properly (and hopefully show why you're wrong to say that's where the root of the problem lies). If you don't then this sort of nudge nudge, "we all know it's 'them' don't we?" comment gets us nowhere.

[Saffron]

It stems from wealthy tax dodgers driving inequality.

[Sue]

Seabag Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> What I'm trying to say is 'we are them and they

> are us' and it will change, if we somehow will and

> can contribute to that change

Yes, well said.

And Saffron, yes that too.

[Dullywood]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/05/myron-yarde-knife-crime-school

This thread is as cringeworthy as the above article. Nothing but virtue signalling, and a witch hunt of Richard.

[rendelharris]

If somebody makes a statement on a public forum and leaves a question hanging (for example "Perhaps actually saying what social strata and culture the problem stems from might be a good first step in solving the problem") then asking them to elucidate that statement is not a witch hunt. It's called debate, if you don't want to debate then don't...um...join a debate.

Interesting that you joined the forum late last night just to register a defence of Richard - at least he has one friend!

[Jeremy]

Saffron Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It stems from wealthy tax dodgers driving inequality.

Is that a serious comment, or a topical gag?

[Seabag]

Dullywood Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/

> 05/myron-yarde-knife-crime-school

> This thread is as cringeworthy as the above

> article. Nothing but virtue signalling, and a

> witch hunt of Richard.

Two edits and that's as good as you get

Be honest, how many times have you checked this thread to see what the response to your post is?

Exciting isn't it, if that's your 'thing'

[JohnL]

rendelharris Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> richard tudor Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Perhaps actually saying what social strata and

> > culture the problem stems from might be a good

> > first step in solving the problem.

> >

> > Unfortunately people are afraid to point the

> > finger. Until that happens you can discuss

> until

> > the cows come home.

>

> Would one be correct in assuming that you are

> pointing the finger at the black community? If so

> why don't you have the guts to say it and then we

> can debate the issue properly (and hopefully show

> why you're wrong to say that's where the root of

> the problem lies). If you don't then this sort of

> nudge nudge, "we all know it's 'them' don't we?"

> comment gets us nowhere.

The problem may come from other parts of the community and

the way they treat another part of the community.

It's way to simplistic to just blame one part of the community

alone especially when that part is less empowered.

Edit: I also standby the statement that there is less violent crime

in SE15/SE22 at present.

[JohnL]

Dullywood Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/

> 05/myron-yarde-knife-crime-school

> This thread is as cringeworthy as the above

> article. Nothing but virtue signalling, and a

> witch hunt of Richard.

This article seems to relate a non gang related

crime to gangs (sorry not that one but the below one).

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/10/tough-streets-myron-yarde

We used to have 'trident is investigating' and

a large section of the community thought 'not

my problem then'

[rendelharris]

LocalDeals Wrote:

> What do you mean by that? What social strata and

> culture do you believe the problem comes from?

Hush now, in Richard and his chum (?) Dullywood's world if you make a dubious statement without any evidence in a debate then if people ask you what you mean it's a witch hunt!