Labour candidates in East Dulwich

[Domitianus]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

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> You can see that there is an argument that if poor

> children are helped at an early age, money might

> be saved later on (be it health or criminal

> related)?

>

> I knew plenty of people who benefitted from school

> meals growing up and I think it's a bit crass for

> "taxpayers" to be quite so "I'm alright Jack"

> about things

It's not a matter of an "I'm alright Jack" attitude. It's a matter of whether taxpayers have an obligation to provide basic sustenance for other people's children even when they may be more than able to provide such sustenance themselves. I was one of those who benefited from free school dinners when I was at primary school as I was a child in a single-parent family. Obviously I was not at an age when I had the awareness to make a decision about the mores of such free provision but I am certainly not looking down from some elite perspective now. I am pretty sure that if such meals hadn't been provided my mum would have found an alternative way to feed us well. What appears to be the case here, however, is simply giving everyone free meals regardless of financial status.

It's the same in my view as free school milk. I drank it as a nipper but could never understand as an adult why everyone seemed to think it so mean that Mrs T did away with it. It was a nice little freebie and I enjoyed it as a child but I would be very hard pressed to make any sort of case to assert that the state had any obligation to provide it.

When I worked in PR we got free breakfast and lunch in the canteen where we worked. It was great. Saved a good few bob. After a while however, the bosses realised that it was costing the firm a small fortune and withdrew the perk. It was a disappointment but I can't fault them for it.

Now....let's have something contentious. If I bought a pet and couldn't feed it would the state be expected to provide me with Felix or Winalot? Or would people say it was deeply irresponsible for me to buy an animal I couldn't support? Would people be likely to say that I should give up a few of my own luxuries in order to provide the basics for Fido?

[????]

Nationally, if we go bust we'll all be poorer and poorest will suffer the most - that's the gravity of the situation whatever the causes etc. I just don't think people really get this. I do understand the issue of the non-claimants and it is an issue with all means tetsed benefits, but a significant number of pupils (the majority I believe) in Southwark DO not need this and we have to start cutting expenditure sometime and somewhere. That's the ultimate poverty of political patronage and one reasons why the Public Sector will hurts so much soon...there's alot of patronage jobs in there curtesy of Gordon which we can no longer afford. Stop spending for votes.

[Domitianus]

david_carnell Wrote:

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> Politician makes policy to win votes shocker!

>

> Come on Quidsy - are you expecting me to believe

> that you're arguing against any degree of populism

> in politics? Whilst I'd like to see an ideological

> backbone to policy making I don't object to some

> measures that are vote winners too. This is the

> 21st century.

>

> This is fundamentally a policy which will help

> poorer families, by removing the stigma and social

> barriers which continue to be attached to

> recipients of free school meals and by offering a

> healthy and nutritious meal to those 1,800 pupils

> who are already entitled to free school meals but

> do not take advantage of that entitlement. A

> recent study by Leeds University showed that only

> one per cent of packed lunches taken to school

> contained the nutritional content that a child

> needs - surely the idea of the local council

> providing that is not so abhorrent?

There are a number of presuppositions here that are untested:

1. school meals will be nutritionally sound - have we any reason to believe this?

2. if school meals are nutritionally sound, the children will actually eat them! (a lot of kids turn their noses up at anything healthy)

3. there is no other option to nourish kids. How about teaching those who make their kids their packed lunch a little bit about human nutritional requirements as an optionb?

[????]

For once I'm going to agree with almost everything you say Dominatus excepet point out that Children, including other peoples, do offer You a future benefit. Pay taxes, police your streets, serve you in pubs/restaurants, adminsiter you medecine and maybe even wipe your bum for you in your final years. Fido does not.

[Loz]

Most people don't use libraries.

Most people don't visit a website.

Most people don't read local press.

Everyone living in the area has a letterbox.

But I bet most people don't read Southwark Life. Mine goes straight into the recycling bin.

I don't disagree with the council communicating with the residents. But is a colour magazine, with reasonably high production values and distributed monthly, the most cost effective way to advertise council services? Why not a four pager every four months? A pamphlet delivered with the council tax bill every year?

The website, on the other hand, is pretty good. A little cluttered, but I've always found the information I need on there.

[Loz]

It was me who did the back of a fag packet math - but I did it over in James Barber's thread (sorry admin...). Cutting and pasting (sorry admin again), it was:

Current number of free school meals: 7000

Number of free school meals proposed: 20000

Number of "too embarrassed" to take up school meals children: 1800.

cost per meal: 94p

So you are proposing to feed for free - needlessly - 11,200 children just because 1800 aren't taking them up, with no guarantee this will get them to take them up anyway (having seen the "burgers through the fence" scene on Jamie's School Dinners).

This at a back-of-a-fagpacket cost of 94p x 11200 x 195 days = $2.05 million in utterly needless spending. Bravo. Didn't anyone tell you there was a recession on and we're supposed to be reigning in spending, not wasting it profligately?

Now Sean, can you not say that that 2 million quid could be better spent?

[Oliver Kempton]

Dear all

Sorry for the delay in replying.

Firstly on Southwark communications. There are some quite strong views on Southwark Life, and this is clearly something that we will need to think about. My concern with Southwark?s communications had been primarily with the bus-stop adverts telling us how good our council is, but as quite a few people see Southwark Life as a waste of money then we will look at that too.

Huguenot, looks like most of the information you found on google is indeed about me, although some of it is out-of-date. I did run for the council in Oxford when I was a student, although it was a little more than a couple of years ago. I am from the north originally (well, Derby, which is midlands rather than north, but it?s all north-of-the-river). I did also work for PSB, although I left just over a year ago. I worked with businesses rather than politicians in my time there, and we did research rather than lobbying. I now work at a charity / think-tank. Am I looking for a fast-track to power? I wouldn?t consider it like that. Many of the councillors I know (from all parties, and not just in Southwark) have said that being a councillor takes up so much time it can be a hindrance on your career rather than a fast-track to power. You?re correct on twenty-something (for another couple of years at least), and if growing up in Derbyshire makes me provincial, then you?re right on that too.

Smiler, I think that school places are a bigger issue in East Dulwich than school meals, and I don?t think that there?s been adequate planning for the demographic changes in the area, although the extra money from the government for school classrooms should help. I do think though that the lack of a suitable site in East Dulwich is a bigger barrier for a new school than anything central government has or hasn?t done. We will look at the admissions ? more to follow on this.

Finally, on school meals. A lot?s been said on this from both points of view already. As david_carnell said, many families are entitled to school meals but don?t take them up. In some cases this is due to the stigma, in some it?s due to lack of knowledge. Furthermore, families? circumstances change and their entitlements change, and keeping track of this can be tricky. Schools are unlikely to turn away children who haven?t paid and who may be entitled to free lunches, and I know of schools having to write-off losses that are not insubstantial.

Domitianus posed some specific questions about school meals. Firstly, are they nutritionally sound? Healthy meals is a requirement now, and the two Southwark schools with which I am involved as a governor have both taken steps in the recent future to further boost the nutritional value of their lunches. And yes, the children do eat them ? actually they often rather enjoy them. I?ve sampled them and they?re certainly a big improvement on the school dinners I got when I was at primary school. I think you?re absolutely right about teaching those who make packed lunches about nutritional requirements. But I don?t think it?s a case of one or the other. Finally, there are links between the nutritional content of meals and educational attainment, and pushing up children?s educational attainment benefits us all in the long run.

Very best,

Oliver

[steveo]

Yes, the bus shelter ads also promote the schools which in this area are oversubscribed. That doesn't seem very joined up.

[Green Goose]

Huguenot Wrote:

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> Thanks Oliver, I noted the unusual coyness on your

> background and did a little googling.

>

You beat me to it Huguenot, I did the same research - just that I didn't have time to post.

Sounds like the Oliver Kempton at NEF (New Economic Foundation).

That's the bunch of lefty loonies that advocated the idea that all of us should work a maximum of 21 hours a week.

GG

[Huguenot]

Ah, I kind of liked that idea.

Many thanks Oliver for your considered response. The provincial thing was only a dig you know ;-)

Now, about that business plan....

[candp]

Oliver, perhaps you could ask your Labour colleagues in South Camberwell to look at lighting and security in the park next to Sainsbury's, on Abbotswood Road and by the side of the football club and between St Francis Rd and Abbotswood Road?

Many residents have concerns about these routes after dark and (not to move these discussions here admin but for reference) there have been horrible incidents discussed here http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?5,336529,page=20 and more topically here http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?5,427780 As Sainsbury's have a duty of care and as Mr Barber has said that the park is a concern of his constituents too, it sounds as if a bit of joined-up working and holding Sainsbury's to their responsibilities might be in order. God knows they can afford it, I'm just back from there and the place is packed!

Thanks.

[Oliver Kempton]

Dear candp

Thanks for raising this - I will bring it up with the South Camberwell Labour team and get back to you as soon as I can.

Very best

Oliver

[Oliver Kempton]

Hello candp

I?ve been in touch with Veronica Ward, one of the Labour councillors for South Camberwell. They have been talking to Sainbury?s about this for some time. Sainsbury?s are meant to ensure that the park is closed when it is dark, but they have been careless about opening and closing times.

Unfortunately the management at Sainsbury?s has changed over time and there is no corporate memory of earlier discussions with the councillors and the community about the park.

The person currently at Sainsbury?s that Veronica has been in touch with is Pete Brown. I will add my voice to Veronica?s and ask him to see that this is resolved, highlighting the recent incident. It would be helpful though if others were also able to lobby him (or other members of the Sainsbury?s management) when in the store, or in writing (80 Dog Kennel Hill, SE22 8BB ). If they can?t look after the gates then we will ask them to provide lighting.

I will let you know if we get any further developments.

Very best

Oliver

[sophiesofa]

this is the reply i got this morning from sainsburys:

Dear Sophie

Thanks for your email. I'm sorry that the park next to our store is posing a problem to customer?s safety. I understand that this is worrying as many of our customers use the park as access to the store.

I have called the store and spoke to the Deputy Manager David who confirmed that the Dulwich store and in negotiation with the councilor to get the park lights installed. For the moment the park gates will be locked at dusk to help prevent any customers being assaulted endangering themselves. This is done each evening by one of the store security guards.

We're grateful for your feedback as it helps us improve our products and services. I hope that you see a change soon and customers feel safer on their way home.

We look forward to seeing you in store soon.

[paramount]

Oh dear. This isn't going to make me a popular poster, but I've lived in Southwark all my considerable life and can remember only too clearly the dire situation the borough was in for years when Labour was running it.

[Oliver Kempton]

Dear all

A while back I got lots of requests for more information on Labour's plans for Southwark. The Southwark Labour Party has now published its manifesto, and you can find it here:

http://www.southwarklabour.co.uk/uploads/089d69db-87f0-2284-d51c-883ead9cffae.pdf

Highlights include:

?Introduce free healthy school meals for all primary school children

?Guarantee every child a place in a local primary school

?Push down the price of Meals on Wheels by 50%

?Double the recycling rate

If anybody would like a hard copy of the manifesto then please send me an email or a PM with your name and address.

Many thanks

Oliver

[Huguenot]

A few thoughts...

I just can't see why people would have to buy meals for the kids of parents who are richer than they are. Why is this a pledge - has research suggested that the swing voters have a problem with feeding their kids?

If you going to 'guarantee' a place at a primary school, are you planning on building more schools, employing more teachers or forcing them to take larger class sizes? What happens if the rooms physically aren't big enough?

I know you're not from the area, but are you aware that the problem in ED is secondary schools?

How are you going to double the recycling rate? Are you planning on making it more accessible, or introducing fines to force people to recycle?

You see the pledges might make snappy reading, but it's what's behind them that actually defines policy.

[mastershake]

double recycling rate - does that mean 2 collections a week? to my mind that's a waste of money...

[Oliver Kempton]

Hi Huguenot

Thanks for taking a look!

I'm not aware of any research showing swing voters have a problem feeding their kids, but I am aware of research (and local anecdotal evidence) to show that healthy school lunches are good for children's concentration and learning, and help reduce disruption in the classroom. There's been quite a bit of debate on it in this thread already though so I will leave it there for now.

Primary schools - the Government has allocated ?12 million for new school classrooms in Southwark. Currently the council is sitting on the money but a priority of mine if eleced would be to make sure that Dulwich gets its fair share. As you know, all the Labour candidates in East Dulwich do live locally, myself included ;-). To be honest, from the people i've spoken to in East Dulwich primary schools comes up marginally more often than secondary schools. Either way, the new Harris school will help with pressure on secondary school places.

Key to improving the recycling rate is about making it more accessible. That includes extending what can be put in the kerb side recycling, but also making recycling available in more places. For example I can't get Southwark to sort out recycling in my block of flats which means I have to take it down to Sainsburys on the bus, which is a bit of a pain. Although to be honest that may be the fault of the privatised call centre rather than the recycling team.

Mastershake, by double the recycling rate we mean double the proportion of househould waste that is recycled rather than going to landfill. Currently Southwark has the sixth lowest rate in England and I believe we can do a lot better. Nothing to do with number of collections per week.

Very best

Oliver

[mastershake]

oh right, i see now. will that include compost etc - can you offer specifics?

thanks for replying to all of this by the way.

[Oliver Kempton]

No problem matershake.

Garden waste can already be recycled - see here for more info: http://www.southwark.gov.uk/info/200084/recycling_and_waste/1363/garden_waste/2

Various things can't be put in the kerb side recycling, e.g. Tetra Pak cartons or plastic bags. I think these are unnecessary restrictions and we can increase recycling by allowing them. Ensuring that everyone has access to the same level of recycling facilities will also help.

If you have any further thoughts on how recycling can be increased then please do let us know.

Very best

Oliver

[Administrator]

Moving this to the Drawing Room

[Smiler]

I am a parent of a toddler and am concerned about the variable quality of the local primary schools.

It would be helpful if you could expand on how, in practice, you might 'guarantee' a place at a local primary school more fully (would you, for example, build more schools, or employ more teachers and have extra classes in the admission year for some schools)?

Also, would you seek to increase the number of places at the better-performing and more popular schools, perhaps leaving those that are currently in special measures or less well-rated (e.g. Goose Green) undersubscribed?

I understand that the plan of the current council is to have "bulge" classes at the most popular schools, to be determined once the places have been allocated according to which schools are more popular: presume that some of the cash could be used for this.

[Loz]

So, Labour Southwark "Can we think of a stupid waste of money that'll buy votes" school meals idea is now official. Say bye bye to this (previously Labour voter) vote. Did no one tell you there was a recession on? A ?2M/year waste of money.

Who'd have ever thought that Labour would run on a platform of "Labour - Feeding the middle classes for free". What has happened to Labour ideals?

[sophiesofa]

It's ruled labour out for me too.