Voting to remain

[WorkingMummy]

James Dyson's pedigree as a fortune teller:

"In 1998, Dyson was one of the chairmen and chief executives of the twenty FTSE 100 companies who signed a statement published in The Financial Times in 1998 calling on the government for early British membership of the Eurozone.[22] He claimed that failure to join the Euro would lead to the destruction of the British manufacturing base and said: "It does not mean that the jobs will go tomorrow but will drift abroad over a period and the longer-term future of Britain as a manufacturing nation will be blighted. Ministers had better understand that if we delay entry too long there may be nothing left to save."[source: wikipedia.]

So, utterly on the wrong side of that one, then.

[TheArtfulDogger]

WorkingMummy Wrote:

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> James Dyson's pedigree as a fortune teller:

>

> "In 1998, Dyson was one of the chairmen and chief

> executives of the twenty FTSE 100 companies who

> signed a statement published in The Financial

> Times in 1998 calling on the government for early

> British membership of the Eurozone.[22] He claimed

> that failure to join the Euro would lead to the

> destruction of the British manufacturing base and

> said: "It does not mean that the jobs will go

> tomorrow but will drift abroad over a period and

> the longer-term future of Britain as a

> manufacturing nation will be blighted. Ministers

> had better understand that if we delay entry too

> long there may be nothing left to save."

>

> So, utterly on the wrong side of that one, then.

But was he so wrong... Most manufacturing companies and jobs have drifted abroad....

[WorkingMummy]

Dogger, not because of our "failure" to join the European single currency they haven't. And given the events of 2008, it was the best decision we made - to ignore his advice and stay out.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Remain was ahead most of the way through the campaigns, because Leave just couldn't put up a convincing economic arguement. That's when Leave decided to hit the emergency 'immigration' button and start implying (whilst assiduously not explicitly stating) that a vote to leave would cut down the number of people coming here to work (obviously they didn't put it in those terms, more 'coming here to 'take houses, jobs and to launch terrorist attacks'). Unfortunately it has been very successful and that is why the polls are moving. If we 'Brexit' I suspect it will be in large part down to the idea that leaving will lead to less immigration (which it probably won't) and the ridiculous notion that public services will improve as a result of a weaker economy.

[????]

WorkingMummy Wrote:

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> Dogger, not because of our "failure" to join the

> European single currency they haven't. And given

> the events of 2008, it was the best decision we

> made - to ignore his advice and stay out.

And that of Tony Blair, Peter Mandleson on this. Now, where are they in the Brexit debate?

[WorkingMummy]

I agree rahrahrah.

It's not just on immigration that they are having people over, though. Their Sovereignty and their "we all hate EU regulation" positions are both big cons too.

Why is no one extolling the virtues of EU regulation? I used to be married to a junior doctor in the 1990s, on a "one in three" rota. This meant that as well working 12 hour days Mon-Fri each week, every three nights he would work all night ON TOP of that. So a "shift" would start Monday 8am and go right through to 5 or 6 pm the NEXT day. Every third weekend he'd do Saturday 8 am to Monday at noon. He would be at the hospital on his feet throughout that time. It was mad. Technically, he was only "on call" overnight (there was a bed in a room off the ward) but his specialty was paediatrics and neonatology which meant he never got to bed. He is a good doctor, a consultant now, but no way would I want him treating my children in the state I used to find him when I picked him up from work. I wouldn't even let him drive the car. Every time I take my kids to A&E, I think, thank God for the EU working time directive. It is far superior to what we had before.

These points are rarely made. Leave make that whole thing about Sovereignty. When the real question should not be which set of people make our "laws" - and actually, it's regulation of matters of common interest in a single market, like workers' conditions and consumer rights and safety - but whether those people are doing a better job than we believe any domestic regulation-maker would. Regulation is such a subordinate form of legislation anyway (wherever it is made), it is utter, utter nonsense to make a big an issue of the geographic whereabouts of the regulators and say it's about "democracy", or "sovereignty". It's like saying, "Oh yes, thank God we can set monetary policy at home because we can always vote out the Governor of the Bank of England."

I am glad we do set monetary policy at home because I believe we need to be able to separate our interests from Europe's in that regard. But do I want us to be free to set less generous working conditions for our workforce (to give us a competitive edge)? No! I don't! Do I want our construction firms to be able to build new buildings that are less energy efficient than those built in Holland or Norway? No! Do I want the UK to "retake control" over food labelling? No.

I have no doubt, the ultra right wing forces represented by Farage and Boris would LOVE to have control over all these things. But I feel much safer having my children's futures in all these areas (where their interests are precisely the same as French, German, Dutch children) in the hands of the EU.

[LondonMix]

Can someone who is Leave please explain to me what they think there is to gain being as specific as possible? I really still don't get it.

[Louisa]

LM - Control of the driving seat and the all important direction the car is headed in.

Louisa.

[WorkingMummy]

So, Louisa, you regret that EU is "in the driving seat" when it comes to controlling the degree of short-selling City traders can undertake? You think it is awful that in 2013 the rest of the EU out-voted the UK government and "forced" it to put a cap on bankers' bonuses, to prevent grotesquely large financial incentives causing traders to take risks that contributed to the financial crisis? You want to "drive the car" when it comes to climate change and environmental protection? And you want to divorce yourself from the EU's current attempts to get corporations to declare their EU-wide corporation taxes (to prevent tax avoidance)?

[Louisa]

the remain campaign is so supportive of the dull and failing status quo. The more people explain all the virtues of the EU and all the finite detail, the more I switch off. I'm not overly interested in all the predicted consequences of brexit, because predictions is just what they are. It comes across as negative and totally unappealing to me and many others who just want to take back control again. Yes you can argue until the cows come home we won't actually get back control of immigration, sovereignty and the economy - but I think momentum has built behind just taking a stab in the dark - whether we sink or swim, its our future and our choice.

Louisa.

[WorkingMummy]

Louisa. Frankly, you have said it all. If you have no interest in finding out what the EU actually does do (because that is too dull for you) then you have no business "taking control" of it.

Thank you! At least you said it.

And you should be ashamed.

[Louisa]

WM your summary of the pro's for remaining just a post before your last is a drop in the ocean of the total control the EU has over us. Do you honestly think it is correct that a sovereign nation state can be pulled into line by a distant and bureaucratic trading block without democratic consequences? You highlighted some of the positives, but they are a drop in the ocean, and despite them being overwhelmingly 'positive' areas of legislation - they are nonetheless overwhelmingly undemocratic in nature.

I am fully aware of what the EU does do, and alongside the good things are a number of bad things. If you are happy to be dictated to be a super trading bloc then that's fine, I'm not. I think we can control those things better from the outside. And by suggesting someone who wants to take a stab in the dark is being be delusional and "should be ashamed" isn't winning me over. It's just reinforcing that nanny state 'we know best' aspect of the EU that those of us who want out hate so much.

Louisa.

[????]

Such sanctimony - so typical of middle class, left wing righteousness. I'm just in Remain but can see why Brexit is gaining momentum. Sovereignty does matter but fundamentally political engagement matters enormously and the EU is failing massively and across the continent; in part because of the 'we know best' attitude of those at the top but also blatant avoidance of democracy via the Lisbon Treat for eg. One persons keeping workers rights is another's existing job protectionism causing massive youth unemployment (especially among the poorest and marginalized in places like France and Spain, we won't even think about Greece). UK is first place to have the living wage; one of the first with same sex marriage; first to have a Muslim mayor elected to an important political role; to act like we are some kind of backward pariah in opportunity and equality is the narrative of middle-class, country hating,left wing, Guardian readers.

[Louisa]

Quids you hit the nail on the head above. In terms of home grown legislation we are one of the most outward looking and progressive nations in the EU, and it is frankly patronising to be told anyone who thinks we should leave it, is by nature a 'little Englander', it simply just isn't true. Makes for good sanctimonious headlines for the 'In' camp though.

Louisa.

[TheArtfulDogger]

WorkingMummy Wrote:

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> So, Louisa, you regret that EU is "in the driving

> seat" when it comes to controlling the degree of

> short-selling City traders can undertake? You

> think it is awful that in 2013 the rest of the EU

> out-voted the UK government and "forced" it to put

> a cap on bankers' bonuses, to prevent grotesquely

> large financial incentives causing traders to take

> risks that contributed to the financial crisis?

That was also a political move by the EU who wants to wrestle the financial sector away from London and the U.K. As a whole and relocate it in Frankfurt, I agree that the financial sector needed reigning in after the crisis started in America, but there is no hiding from the fact that Germany wants to be the financial powerhouse of Europe and wants to impose even more stringent controls on the UK until financial companies are forced to relocate.

[Jules-and-Boo]

oh dear - have we in ED resorted to insulting each other?

Working mummy - really should Louisa REALLY be ashamed? What - for not agreeing with you? Having her own opinion? Being confident in what she's saying? No need to make it personal, is there?

I don't think anyone knows how this will pan out - either way. And I don't think anyone will be privy to what really happens in politics in EU.

[Otta]

EU Courts backing our rules.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36526158

[Rook]

I only mentioned james Dyson to say that he called the notion of us not being able to negotiate trade agreements "cobblers". Its a view alot of my clients share too. I dont think I said he would be a great trade negotiator and I dont really care what he predicted in the past.

If you are looking at past predictions then all the scaremongering around how "if we dont join the Euro" is a better example of how looking through those threats/worries does not exactly equate to a life of fire and brimstone. People make predictions and people can be wrong, but its up to you to decide with reasoned thought - rather than beign pushed into an "easy/emotional" mindset that means you find its "stupid" to want to leave. In my experience anyone with too much of an emotional affiliation to either side is most likely to get a eureka moment and change their mind after challengign themselves a bit (me included)

Anyway- to my friend London Mix I just wanted to come back on your earlier query....yes I do believe there is a very high "disintegration risk" with the EU if we vote to Leave. I only mentioned this as the issue of trade seems to be a huge concern for you, so in combination with the likes of Chairman of British Chamber of Commerce, clients direct etc sayign that we could actually prosper outside of this "club" (post a short term period of uncertainty yes)- I am also just sayign there is also the possibility that your fears might be further mitigated by the notion that I have become more unsure of the EU and do not believe that "Remain will mean relief" at all - I think we enter a period of more worry and uncertainty about the EU which will have a long and protracted detrimental effect on the UK economy and Id rather accept short term uncertainty than choose to endure this.

I believe if we vote to Leave then the rule book gets re-written and I view it as a positive that we take our chance to do something about it rather than remain in something that does not work. Elements of it do work of course, but I think businesses should be able to trade freely with any country in the EU directly and not have to be part of the EU club to do it. This referendum asks whether we should remain or leave. I look at the economy now and all other issues and answerign the question directly I have to say Leave.

[TheArtfulDogger]

Otta Wrote:

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> EU Courts backing our rules.

>

> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36526158

But at what financial cost to get that agreement and why did we need to get them to back us when we should be able to make a ruling like that without having someone outside of our borders having the final say so...

[Otta]

TheArtfulDogger Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Otta Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > EU Courts backing our rules.

> >

> > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36526158

>

>

> But at what financial cost to get that agreement

> and why did we need to get them to back us when we

> should be able to make a ruling like that without

> having someone outside of our borders having the

> final say so...

"why did we need to get them to back us"

Well I'm assuming because someone made a challenge to them.

We can make whatever rulings we like. And if said ruling are outside of the law, people will challenge them.

All sorts of ruling at government and at local level get challenged in the (UK) courts all the time.

It's not like the European Courts makes any rulings on our behalf, the government makes rulings. I for one am happy to have a court that tells them when dodgy rulings are illegal.

[LondonMix]

Fair enough. I can see genuinely wanting sovereignty for its own sake. My family isn't prepared to pay the economic costs involved with that but each person values it differently and there is no right or wrong there.

Louisa Wrote:

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> LM - Control of the driving seat and the all

> important direction the car is headed in.

>

> Louisa.

[uncleglen]

This is an example of how the EU court overrules our court

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3467569/Judge-lets-Romanian-rapist-Britain-break-EU-law-deport-home-country.html

he is a rapist and a drunk driver (i.e. potential murderer). I know all you lefty fascists will scream daily mail...but it was widely reported and this is the first ref on google

plenty more where that came from...oh yes and so what if the EU court agrees with the PM on the child benefit thing today- they can reverse ANY of their rulings at anytime....

[Earl Aelfheah]

All you lefty fascists? I think you may need a nice cup of tea and a sit down.

[Seabag]

I've got to the point of knowing what I want and what others want may differ and I accept that. But from a sanity point of view I'm preparing my 'mood' and way forward in a strategic 'either way' manner

IN = Great and oh fuck

OUT = Great and oh fuck

[Sue]

Sorry if someone has already posted this, but I saw it on Facebook and thought it was quite good ....

"If you don't have the time/inclination to find out all the facts about the EU referendum (I don't blame you) and are possibly unsure which way to vote, perhaps knowing how other notable people are thinking could help out.

Here are a few that strongly believe the UK should remain a member of the EU:

? Governor of the Bank of England

? International Monetary Fund

? Institute for Fiscal Studies

? Confederation of British Industry

? Leaders/heads of state of every single other member of the EU

? President of the United States of America

? Eight former US Treasury Secretaries

? President of China

? Prime Minister of India

? Prime Minister of Canada

? Prime Minister of Australia

? Prime Minister of Japan

? Prime Minister of New Zealand

? The chief executives of most of the top 100 companies in the UK including Marks and Spencer, BT, Asda, Vodafone, Virgin, IBM, BMW etc.

? Kofi Annan, the former Secretary General of the United Nations

? All living former Prime Ministers of the UK (from both parties)

? Virtually all reputable and recognised economists

? The Prime Minister of the UK

? The leader of the Labour Party

? The Leader of the Liberal Democrats

? The Leader of the Green Party

? The Leader of the Scottish National Party

? The leader of Plaid Cymru

? Leader of Sinn Fein

? Martin Lewis, that money saving dude off the telly

? The Secretary General of the TUC

? Unison

? National Union of Students

? National Union of Farmers

? Stephen Hawking

? Chief Executive of the NHS

? 300 of the most prominent international historians

? Director of Europol

? David Anderson QC, Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation

? Former Directors of GCHQ

? Secretary General of Nato

? Church of England

? Church in Scotland

? Church in Wales

? Friends of the Earth

? Greenpeace

? Director General of the World Trade Organisation

? WWF

? World Bank

? OECD

Here are pretty much the only notable people who think we should leave the EU:

? Boris Johnson, who probably doesn?t really care either way, but knows he?ll become Prime Minister if the country votes to leave

? A former Secretary of State for Work and Pensions who carried out a brutal regime of cuts to benefits and essential support for the poorest in society as well as the disabled and sick

? That idiot that was Education Secretary and every single teacher in the country hated with a furious passion for the damage he was doing to the education system

? Leader of UKIP

? BNP

? Britain First

? Donald Trump

? Keith Chegwin

? David Icke"

I'm in the remain camp, in case it wasn't obvious from the above :))

But hey, I think the whole world is going to hell in a handcart, so what would I know.