Voting to remain

[Louisa]

No problem rah, it's an emotive topic and it's easy to get carried away on either side of the argument with misinterpretation and such like. I agree that there are strands of xenophobia being whipped up by the right wing press, predictable and not very helpful in this debate. That of course as an aside shouldn't lead people to assume that everyone voting 'Out' is somehow a reactionary closet racist. I think somewhere in the middle is probably true, yes there are closet and openly racist people who want brexit for those reasons, but they are far outweighed by sensible people who have looked at the facts and figures and come to the conclusion that a return to national control over this matter will in one way or another bring those numbers down and create a fairer system, and in the process hopefully relieve the strain on housing and infrastructure.

Louisa.

[????]

As in the general debate on immigration, the liberal left seems utterly incapable of separating a 'worries about immigration' from 'fear of immigrants'; whilst the Xenophobes and racists mix up the two so do the 'liberals'. It is quite possible to have concerns about immigration without any fear of immigrants - many second and 3rd generation immigrants do themselves! That's the problem with not allowing/shutting down any debate on this in the past, huge swathes of Guardian readers just can't intellectually separate them....

[Otta]

What makes me chuckle is the thought that lots of the more oikish outers who just don't like immigrants, are probably thinking more of the ones that aren't from Europe anyway. If we do leave I suspect they'll get a bit of a nasty surprise.

[Otta]

By the way, did everyone see this? It's wonderfully painful to watch. Damn those EU safety regulations!

https://m.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/316fzv/man_tries_to_burn_eu_flag_which_wont_burn_due_to/

[Loz]

LondonMix Wrote:

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> Also, maybe someone else picked this up but a few people have implied net EU migration is EU

> citizens coming less Brits leaving. That's not correct-- the net EU migration figure is EU

> citizens arriving minus EU citizens leaving Britain. Many EU citizens come to work in London

> for a few years and then return home or move elsewhere.

That's only correct if you include British people the 'EU citizens' numbers (because they are, but a lot of people wouldn't in terms of the referendum debate).

If you are trying to say that net migration is 'new immigrants arriving minus old immigrants leaving' then, sorry, but that's wrong.

[LondonMix]

Here is the link. http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/statistics-net-migration-statistics

When people quote the net EU migration figure it absolutely does not include British people.

[Loz]

LondonMix Wrote:

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> Here is the link.

> http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/statistics-net-migration-statistics

>

> When people quote the net EU migration figure it

> absolutely does not include British people.

I think you should read that page again. The two mentions of the figure 333,000 shows it backs my definition.

[LondonMix]

Scroll and look at the table that presents net EU migration as well as all the other categories please...

Net EU migration is 184,000.

Your definition is not net EU migration it is something entirely different. The 333,000 includes all citizens: British, European and all others (Americans, common wealth etc etc)

And my point was that net EU migration was not EU citizens arriving less Brits leaving (which it clearly is not).

[Earl Aelfheah]

???? Wrote:

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> As in the general debate on immigration, the

> liberal left seems utterly incapable of separating

> a 'worries about immigration' from 'fear of

> immigrants'; whilst the Xenophobes and racists mix

> up the two so do the 'liberals'. It is quite

> possible to have concerns about immigration

> without any fear of immigrants - many second and

> 3rd generation immigrants do themselves! That's

> the problem with not allowing/shutting down any

> debate on this in the past, huge swathes of

> Guardian readers just can't intellectually

> separate them....

It's nonsense to say the immigration debate has been 'closed down'. But when Farage is talking about EU immigrants putting 'our women' at danger of sexual assault, what response can you give? Just as often it's 'the right' closing down legitimate criticism via constant cries of 'political correctness'.

I agree with Louisa though that there is a sensible debate to be had in the middle somewhere. It's fair to talk about the impact of immigration without suggesting that immigrants are dangerous.

[Loz]

LondonMix Wrote:

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> Your definition is not net EU migration it is something entirely different. The 333,000

> includes all citizens: British, European and all others (Americans, common wealth etc etc)

>

> And my point was that net EU migration was not EU citizens arriving less Brits leaving (which it

> clearly is not).

OK, I can see that. A strange definition. Net immigration includes Brit leavers, but Net EU immigration doesn't?

A rather unhelpful figure. It tells me very little.

[LondonMix]

Net EU migration tells us the isolated increase in the number of EU citizens living in the UK, which I think is an important data point.

However, total net migration including Brits coming back from abroad and those emigrating to other countries tells you the impact total migration is having on population change in the country. Of course that includes all countries globally.

They just serve different uses.

[uncleglen]

Nigel Farage was probably referring to this type of thing when he said women were at risk of sexual assault:

http://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/world-economy/cologne-is-every-day-europes-rape-epidemic/news-story/e2e618e17ad4400b5ed65045e65e141d

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/12176689/Law-abiding-rapist-let-back-into-Britain-because-it-would-break-EU-law-to-deport-him-to-Romania.html

The EU deems that rape is not serious enough to warrant deportation.....so wtf is?

At least the 3.9 million votes for UKIP will count this time around

[Earl Aelfheah]

Someone can be deported if convicted of rape. The Telegraph article is about a man who had previously served time in his own country for a past crime. He was deemed by a judge "to no longer pose enough of a risk to be deported as he had been a law-abiding and working member of UK society for seven years". The headline is rather misleading.

[Otta]

Survey suggests that British people basically haven't got a clue.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-british-public-wrong-about-nearly-everything-survey-shows-a7074311.html

No surprises there then.

[Louisa]

Latest polling suggests 10 point lead for leaving the EU. The largest lead yet, coupled with all other polling data also now showing a solid lead for the 'Out' campaign. But do we really trust polling data?

Louisa.

[Otta]

I am feeling nervous, but bookies still backing remain.

[ploberman]

Ahh....

Only just caught up with this....

I voted NOT to join last time when there were only eight others in it. I believed then it was to allow business to have free hand and would diminish Parliment.

Now there are 27 others, four of which are almost dictatorates and the whole thing is going to be another Titanic within five years.

So its OUT for me...

[Earl Aelfheah]

Got a Leave leaflet through the post today. Two massively misleading statement both back and front (discredited 350m and Turkey immently joining claims). Also a map of Europe showing the new countries that are supposedly joining (they're not) with Iraq and Syria highlighted. Clearly trying to link remaining and threat of terrorism. Boris and Chums are wilfully misleading the public.

[rendelharris]

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> Got a Leave leaflet through the post today. Two

> massively misleading statement both back and front

> (discredited 350m and Turkey immently joining

> claims). Also a map of Europe showing the new

> countries that are supposedly joining (they're

> not) with Iraq and Syria highlighted. Clearly

> trying to link remaining and threat of terrorism.

> Boris and Chums are wilfully misleading the

> public.

I don't know what you're on about, I'm going with everything the great Boris says here ;-)

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/boris-johnson-turkey?utm_term=.hlA4OM38#.kuMAWzxL

[Earl Aelfheah]

One way to reduce net EU migration would be to stop the English hooligans returning.

[Townleygreen]

rah,

yes I noticed that map with Iraq and Syria highlighted - a clear case of trying to scare us into Brexit. Lies.

[LondonMix]

That's really shocking... The government should not let that stand.

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Got a Leave leaflet through the post today. Two

> massively misleading statement both back and front

> (discredited 350m and Turkey immently joining

> claims). Also a map of Europe showing the new

> countries that are supposedly joining (they're

> not) with Iraq and Syria highlighted. Clearly

> trying to link remaining and threat of terrorism.

> Boris and Chums are wilfully misleading the

> public.

[TheArtfulDogger]

Townleygreen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> rah,

> yes I noticed that map with Iraq and Syria

> highlighted - a clear case of trying to scare us

> into Brexit. Lies.

Lies or speculative predictions, much like the ones produced by the government today on pensions...

Both sides are trying to scare us imho

[Jules-and-Boo]

here's a short list of financial and industrial FUBARs from the EU then,.. (it was longer, much longer, but really tough reading. I have however edited this slightly due to those who have asked me to clarify some points. All of it has been fact-checked not only by myself but also many others.)

Cadbury moved production of several brands to a factory in Poland 2011 with EU grant. Despite promising the workforce they would not.

Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.

Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds. They have not yet said what UK plants will lose out.

Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant. That move was not wanted by Peugeot, it was forced on them by EU blundering and cost then dearly.

British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in Spain using Swedish steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales. (Just assembly. They could have been built entirely in Wales with British steel, ah Tata, maybe not then.)

Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan. (I didn't believe this till I checked Financial Times)

Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.

M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.

Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.

Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.

Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.

Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.

Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.

Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.

ICI integration into Holland?s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs

Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of ?80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase. (Now sold on again)

JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with ?20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry. (Joint CEOs charged with financial trading fraud, insider trading)

UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.

Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.

Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.

The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.

Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada. New trains contract awarded to German company.

39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU

The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria and those parts assembled in the UK. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.

Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.

Yes some companies are in the UK with EU funding, but have you noticed that many, like Tata, are planning to shift the production away again, as soon as they will not have to pay a penalty to the EU for doing so. Hundreds already did, just using British skills to develop products and then opt for lower labour costs, often with a serious loss in quality too like Bosch alternators. Many employ staff only on a part-time basis, minimum wage and even those sent by DWP to work for nothing, those get just their benefits.

I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.

I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.

The way companies abuse the EU commercial assistance system is not doing the EU, Britain or any other country any favours. It has massive loopholes that are simply exploited and no-one in Brussels has the wit nor sense to change it. Change in the EU is slow at best and in most cases, next to impossible due to the intense lobbying by companies with a vested interest in abusing this very broken system. I know Margaret Thatcher was not many people's favourite person, but she did get a number of measures agreed that have now been completely eroded and sadly, by her own party. Mr Junker has said that any more 'special status' for Britain will be difficult and will face legal challenges. In other words, we will not get most of them, if any.

If the EU may break up in the event of Britain voting to leave as suggested by both leaders of the Bundesbank and European Central Bank, then in all honesty, we have as a nation been propping up a failed system for too long, It will probably fail anyway, taking anyone still 'in' with it. Thus, this vote you have is not exactly 'remain' or 'leave', it is more an issue of jumping off the sinking ship while we have a chance to swim ashore now, or waiting till it is in really deep water and going down with it. Either way, being brutally honest, we get wet and will have a struggle. Question is, do you want to survive or not?

Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea,

1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party.

2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down.

3/ You don't think it matters.

[red devil]

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