Voting to remain

[Louisa]

I agree LadyNorwood. It's the metropolitan guardian reading elite who do all that sneering, and all it really does is make people dislike them and dig their heels in as you rightly point out. Gone are the days when working class culture meant having some national pride and respect. Traditional socialism was built on patriotic ideals, not these wishy washy elitist ideas coming from the social democrat internationalists who tend to be found in London.

Louisa.

[Jeremy]

I have to say that I'm not personally comfortable with overt, flag-waving patriotism (apart from perhaps during major sports events). Not that I'm looking down or sneering at anybody. I just find it hard to summon much in the way of pride towards our country. There's plenty I like about England/Britain... but also plenty that I don't.

[root]

I'll add persecution complex to the delusions of grandeur

[Louisa]

Sneering again root. Definitely voting out!

Louisa.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Come on Louisa, you sneer more than most, let's be honest.

I dont' really get the objection LadyNorwood. No one is being 'told what to do', they have a choice. It's perfectly reasonable for people to express their opinion however, even where it may differ from your own.

[Louisa]

Oh rah I don't really sneer, half of what I say is taken the wrong way, never meant to be sneering. I think what root has said will only encourage people like me to vote out, it certainly isn't helping change my mind. What will be, will be I guess! I understand this issue is polarised, but sneering really isn't going to change minds.

Louisa.

[Earl Aelfheah]

This is an important vote. I hope people vote on the substance and not as a petty way of 'getting back' at people they don't like or feel may have offended them.

[Blah Blah]

Just to point something out. By far the biggest reason for pressures of social housing is right to buy. Many estates in London are almost half leasehold, and of those leaseholds, most are now in the hands of private landlords. The EU and immigration has had nothing to do with that. And government policy through the Housing and Planning Bill is going to make that situation far worse whether we leave or stay.

This is the problem with many of the issues referenced, a lack of recognition of the role sucessive governments have played. It strikes me as completely ironic that some people are so angry at the EU but don't have that same anger for our own governments.

And I also agree with the sentiment that anyone that thinks the likes of Gove et al will spend any money saved from EU membership on housing or public services is deluded.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Yep

[Otta]

Sorry if I've said this before, I've been meaning to, but can't remember if I posted.

Thing that has been irking me is this whole "loss of our British identity" load of bollocks.

What with Jubilees, weddings, Olympics, Queen's birthdays and whatever else, I feel like I've never seen so much flag waving as I have in the last few years.

I don't even know what British identity is. And if it's the identity of the people that go on about losing it, then I don't want that identity thanks.

[????]

A view on exit that isn't based on the stereotyping rants of the like of root

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/08/eu-reform-green-brexit

BTW i don't subscribe to much of this as I think the Greens want us back in the Stone Age :); but the point is there are plenty of arguments for brexit not based on harking back or racism.

For me the economic uncertainty at my age and with my responsibilities makes me a cowardly Remains and I will bother to vote for these selfish reasons. The strongest argument for Brexit for me is a lack of political engagement with an institution that is increasingly unaccountable; has a dare I say it a 'european' attitude towards the plebs - the elites know best; and looks impossible to reform - i fear it will end in tears.

PS I do like the way all my lefty mates are suddenly citing the opinion as FTSE CEOs, the IFS, the IMF and Goldman Sachs et al as proof of the need to stay in.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Root hasn't been ranting.

[????]

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Root hasn't been ranting.

Ha ha ha - this for eg:

merely stating a fact. It's either ultra nationalism, or xenophobia, or breaking free from environmental regulations. There's not much else

[Earl Aelfheah]

you've scoured this thread and concluded that's the biggest rant on here?!?

[????]

No Rah - I haven't scoured this thread at all; that was just the first E.G of an awareness that Root has been 'ranting' about Brexiters, as others seemed to have agreed at a few points too! My point remains, there are plenty of decent non-bigoted arguments for Brexit....

[Earl Aelfheah]

???? Wrote:

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> My point remains, there are plenty of decent

> non-bigoted arguments for Brexit....

Well I agree with that.

[Blah Blah]

I think it's too easy to stereotype leavers. As with most things, the most shocking supporters of anything will make the first tier of consciouness. It's not helped though by the leave campaign focussing on immigration so much. It's clear what demographic they are going for there. There's a lot of hypocracy going on too (on both sides). Farage has a German wife for example.

[root]

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> No Rah - I haven't scoured this thread at all;

> that was just the first E.G of an awareness that

> Root has been 'ranting' about Brexiters, as others

> seemed to have agreed at a few points too! My

> point remains, there are plenty of decent

> non-bigoted arguments for Brexit....

And those would be?

[Louisa]

Honestly root, I respect any opinion, but I really struggle with your stance on this. I've given plenty of rational arguments, sure not everyone will agree with them but they are all part of the argument. I think you are taking it all far too personally if you are seriously asking what the non-bigoted examples for brexit are. Patronising to be honest.

Louisa.

[root]

Louisa Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Honestly root, I respect any opinion, but I really

> struggle with your stance on this. I've given

> plenty of rational arguments, sure not everyone

> will agree with them but they are all part of the

> argument. I think you are taking it all far too

> personally if you are seriously asking what the

> non-bigoted examples for brexit are. Patronising

> to be honest.

>

> Louisa.

I am patronising, and I can't really blame myself.

[Louisa]

So you're admitting that you're being patronising, and you're also arguing with others that there are no 'non-bigoted' reasons for brexit. Doesn't that mean you've technically lost the argument you were trying to put across? If you even had one?

Louisa.

[uncleglen]

Louisa was right in her earlier post about the poor- the Archbishop of Canterbury stated a couple of weeks ago that when there is large scale immigration it is the poor that bear the brunt of it. I doubt very much that most ED residents have much contact with the truly poor people in the UK.

I'm still trying to understand why children from children's homes in Kent were dispersed around the country to make way for unaccompanied illegals some weeks ago- so much for their human rights

[root]

Louisa Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> So you're admitting that you're being patronising,

> and you're also arguing with others that there are

> no 'non-bigoted' reasons for brexit. Doesn't that

> mean you've technically lost the argument you were

> trying to put across? If you even had one?

>

> Louisa.

What I'm saying is that a lot of people here are too limited to have a valid opinion. Sadly they do have a vote though.

To be fair, the only 'reasoned' (although I don't agree with the motive) I heard was about 10 years ago from a non European immigrant taxi driver who was complaining that with all the new EU countries it's become difficult for his community to bring in their friends and family over.

[malumbu]

Slightly off topic but would be interesting to know...

We have, and will continue to have, a brain drain in some professions (NHS the prime example)

We therefore attract talent from overseas.

What does Romania, Bulgaria, Poland, Latvia, The Philippians etc do to address there brain drain. Not really an in or our issue, but for example would immigration be reversed if there were incentives from original countries?

Love India's approach which is to train up enough brains for domestic and overseas demand!

[Earl Aelfheah]

I think the idea of the poor 'bearing the brunt' of immigration is overplayed and is (mistakenly in my view) premised on the idea of immigration being 'a problem'. It's true that there is a concentration in some low skilled industries of overseas workers, but a lot of the reason for that is that there was demand for labour in some of those areas. There is little evidence of immigration driving down wages, or displacing 'native' workers, despite the rhetoric. Also, one can't ignore the fact that there are also large numbers of highly skilled workers in the UK, in industries such as IT and consultancy for example.

People talk about the metropolitan London elite being removed from the realities of immigration, but I would argue the opposite. Londoners understand the realities of immigration very well - it is a diverse city, and that is why they are generally less hostile to people coming from abroad. Study after study, shows that it is those with the least direct experience of immigrants, who are the typically the most hostile to them.

I understand that if you are languishing on a housing waiting list, one possible reaction is to blame foreigners, but I also think this is entirely wrong and should be challenged. Politicians have failed to provide decent, social housing and have sold off most of what we already had. It is convenient for them to blame this failure on immigrants, but we really shouldn't allow them to divert attention from their own culpability in this way.