Voting to remain

[Earl Aelfheah]

Also, to be clear, I was just reporting some reactions iv'e encountered in relation to the rhetoric around immigration. They surprised me tbh, but equally you cannot dismiss people's feelings on the other side of the debate. That was my point.

[root]

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Louisa Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

....

> > it's sad we are talking about immigration all

> the

> > time. Some people may well feel we aren't

> talking

> > about it enough.

> >

> > Louisa.

>

> That assumes that the failure of successive

> governments to build social housing, whilst

> selling off the stock we have is in fact the fault

> of immigrants.

Pretty much :-)

[Louisa]

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Louisa Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > What I find more depressing is people sat in

> their

> > ivory tower in London feeling sad about the

> > rhetoric surrounding immigration, which of

> course

> > further reinforces the view in the poorest

> regions

> > that the political elite in this city are

> totally

> > out of touch with the rest of the country. Try

> > telling a family who have been sat on the

> housing

> > waiting list for years in Derby or Preston that

> > it's sad we are talking about immigration all

> the

> > time. Some people may well feel we aren't

> talking

> > about it enough.

> >

> > Louisa.

>

> That assumes that the failure of successive

> governments to build social housing, whilst

> selling off the stock we have is in fact the fault

> of immigrants.

When we have a population which is growing year on year (primarily but not exclusively as a result of freedom of movement from the EU), coupled with a lack of social house building it is inevitable that people at the bottom of the pile will start pointing fingers and being a bit pissed off with government and start blaming the people coming here for their woes. If we pull out of the EU we won't solve the housing crisis overnight, but the strain being put on our infrastructure will at least be able to be controlled more directly from within our own borders. It is of course not the fault of the migrants coming here and it is very sad that they are taking the blame for a problem we created ourselves by ever joining this undemocratic union of nations.

Louisa.

[Mick Mac]

Jeremy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> rahrahrah Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > No one is brushing the topic of immigration

> under

> > the carpet. We hear this all the time... "you

> > can't talk about immigration". It's nonsense,

> it's

> > discussed endlessly

>

> It's a taboo subject within liberal circles

> though... specifically because there will always

> be one worthier-than-thou person who is offended

> by a balanced discussion.

Its the "holier than thou" who should never have been allowed in ;)

[Earl Aelfheah]

Well that depends on what you think will happen. If the economy suffers (as I believe it will), then brexit may well lead to a further deterioration in public services. Immigration keeps public services going for crying out loud.

...and it's wrong to suggest that this view is the sole preserve of some imagined metropolitan elite.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Sorry, crossed posted ^ that was in response to Lou's post.

[Louisa]

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Well that depends on what you think will happen.

> If the economy suffers (as I believe it will),

> then brexit may well lead to a further

> deterioration in public services. Immigration

> keeps public services going for crying out loud.

> ...and it's wrong to suggest that this view is the

> sole preserve of some imagined metropolitan elite.

The economy may well suffer, I personally believe it will not, but even if it does, it's a price worth paying to regain our democracy and have more direct control over who comes in and out of our borders. I know lots of people suggest this will not fundamentally change, but my belief is it will have to because we will probably vastly reduce our trading relationship with the EU as time goes along. We do not have to accept freedom of movement as part of any trading deals, that's a totally false argument. Immigration only keeps our infrastructure going because we allow it to, we can more than support our public services by training up people born here and offering them the jobs which many migrants currently take.

I'm sorry rah, but the metropolitan elite of this city have been doing it for years and this is why so much of this country is now fragmenting. It's incredibly patronising for people from other regions to switch the TV on and be confronted by out of touch folk in a city hundreds of miles away who 'know best for them'. Corbyn still fails to acknowledge that immigration is even an issue, and try going in any working mans clubs in the north and preaching that mantra to people who've lost jobs, can't get on the housing list and are waiting longer than ever to get an operation at hospital.

Louisa.

[root]

Louisa Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

...

> > > waiting list for years in Derby or Preston

> that

> > > it's sad we are talking about immigration all

> > the

> > > time. Some people may well feel we aren't

> > talking

> > > about it enough.

> > >

> > > Louisa.

> >

> > That assumes that the failure of successive

> > governments to build social housing, whilst

> > selling off the stock we have is in fact the

> fault

> > of immigrants.

>

> When we have a population which is growing year on

> year (primarily but not exclusively as a result of

> freedom of movement from the EU), coupled with a

> lack of social house building it is inevitable

> that people at the bottom of the pile will start

> pointing fingers and being a bit pissed off with

> government and start blaming the people coming

> here for their woes. If we pull out of the EU we

> won't solve the housing crisis overnight, but the

> strain being put on our infrastructure will at

> least be able to be controlled more directly from

> within our own borders. It is of course not the

> fault of the migrants coming here and it is very

> sad that they are taking the blame for a problem

> we created ourselves by ever joining this

> undemocratic union of nations.

>

Most europans around the uK are gainfully employed and net contributors. They work, they pay their taxes be ith through income tax and vat on products and services. They also rent, shop at Tesco, drink at the pub, etc etc. Are you advocating taking that out of the economy?

[root]

Louisa Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

...

> try going in any working mans clubs in the north

> and preaching that mantra to people who've lost

> jobs, can't get on the housing list and are

> waiting longer than ever to get an operation at

> hospital.

>

I got patched up at Barts. My urologist was Gearman, my rheumatologist Italian. Bloody immigrants.

[Earl Aelfheah]

@louisa - There are plenty of folk who are anti-immigration across the political / class spectrum. To paint immigration as primarily a northern, 'working class' obsession is to do those people a disservice and is not reflective of the reality.

[Mick Mac]

root Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Louisa Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> ...

> > try going in any working mans clubs in the

> north

> > and preaching that mantra to people who've lost

> > jobs, can't get on the housing list and are

> > waiting longer than ever to get an operation at

> > hospital.

> >

>

> I got patched up at Barts. My urologist was

> Gearman, my rheumatologist Italian. Bloody

> immigrants.

There are lots of Europeans working in the NHS but there are lots more European patients depending on the NHS. That's part of why the NHS is as "big" as it is.

[Louisa]

Root did you not read what I already posted? Yes they contribute, but they also add strain to our infrastructure. It's a two way street. We have a housing crisis which can be brought under control (I believe), by exiting the EU and bringing down the numbers coming in. I don't particularly worry about the direct impact on the economy, that may be part of the argument for some but personally it's a small part of it. The housing market will level itself out over a few years once brexit happens.

Louisa.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Can you explain that... How leaving the EU will lead to an increase in social housing?

[Louisa]

root Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Louisa Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> ...

> > try going in any working mans clubs in the

> north

> > and preaching that mantra to people who've lost

> > jobs, can't get on the housing list and are

> > waiting longer than ever to get an operation at

> > hospital.

> >

>

> I got patched up at Barts. My urologist was

> Gearman, my rheumatologist Italian. Bloody

> immigrants.

And why do these people come here to work? Because of freedom of movement, the same freedom that allows other Europeans to come here and be entitled to use the very same NHS which is already under strain from lack of investment. Europeans contribute, but they also take out. That's part of the whole freedom of movement 'luxury'. The issue isn't about who they are, it's how many are here and the impact it is having on public services and housing.

Louisa.

[root]

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Can you explain that... How leaving the EU will

> lead to an increase in social housing?

I think it means expelling the foreigners and take up residence where them foreigners are currently squatting.

[Earl Aelfheah]

So Lou, do you think that post Brexit we'll see more investment in public services?

What kind of fall do you think they'll be in immigration numbers? What would you like to see?

[root]

Louisa Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

...

> > > try going in any working mans clubs in the

> > north

> > > and preaching that mantra to people who've

> lost

> > > jobs, can't get on the housing list and are

> > > waiting longer than ever to get an operation

> at

> > > hospital.

> > >

> >

> > I got patched up at Barts. My urologist was

> > Gearman, my rheumatologist Italian. Bloody

> > immigrants.

>

> And why do these people come here to work? Because

> of freedom of movement, the same freedom that

> allows other Europeans to come here and be

> entitled to use the very same NHS which is already

> under strain from lack of investment. Europeans

> contribute, but they also take out. That's part of

> the whole freedom of movement 'luxury'. The issue

> isn't about who they are, it's how many are here

> and the impact it is having on public services and

> housing.

>

> Louisa.

Why do you think people like myself are here?

[Louisa]

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> So Lou, do you think that post Brexit we'll see

> more investment in public services?

> What kind of fall do you think they'll be in

> immigration numbers? What would you like to see?

Probably not under this Tory government, but in terms of democracy if people are bored of them they can kick them out and put someone more progressive in who will invest in public services from the money we've saved by leaving the EU. I think the loosening of the trading relationship between us and the EU will mean we can stop freedom of movement and only allow in the essential people we need for specific services public and private.

Louisa.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Fair enough, I suspect that we will see significant downswing in the economy and likely an extension to austerity. I suspect immigration will remain fairly high if it drops at all (in my view no bad thing) and if it doesn't there will be further damage to the economy. If so there will be further deterioration in public services. But this of course is the judgment everyone will have to make for themselves.

[root]

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Fair enough, I suspect that we will see

> significant downswing in the economy and likely an

> extension to austerity. I suspect immigration will

> remain fairly high if it drops at all (in my view

> no bad thing) and if it doesn't there will be

> further damage to the economy. If so there will be

> further deterioration in public services. But this

> of course is the judgment everyone will have to

> make for themselves.

It's plain delusions of grandeur.

[Earl Aelfheah]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/07/thousands-eu-referendum-postal-votes-feared-lost-germany

Would be ironic if the vote was lost as a result of under regulation by the EU.

[LadyNorwood]

root Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> LadyNorwood Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > In any other country it would be called

> > patriotism, in this country it's xenophobia....

>

>

> I think you're mistaking patriotism for

> ultra-nationalism.

No I'm not but thanks for your input...

[Louisa]

root Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> rahrahrah Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Fair enough, I suspect that we will see

> > significant downswing in the economy and likely

> an

> > extension to austerity. I suspect immigration

> will

> > remain fairly high if it drops at all (in my

> view

> > no bad thing) and if it doesn't there will be

> > further damage to the economy. If so there will

> be

> > further deterioration in public services. But

> this

> > of course is the judgment everyone will have to

> > make for themselves.

>

> It's plain delusions of grandeur.

No root it isn't delusions of grandeur. It's wanting to get our democracy back first and foremost, secondly to leave the EU and bring down immigration to save us money and free up our struggling infrastructural from the weight of all this population growth. I don't particularly care one way or another about the economic outcome, I think it won't be as bad as the doom merchants are predicting, but even if it is it will mean more affordable housing for those struggling to buy currently, and give local government more money from the money saved from EU membership to build and provide more social housing. Not a 'little Englander' talking here, a pragmatic pro-democracy stance.

Louisa.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Where is it you think patriotism is being wrongly identified?

[LadyNorwood]

What many people seem to be unable to grasp is that the more criticism levelled at 'out' voters (and indeed Trump supporters), the more it makes them dig in their heels. The British are well-known for being stubborn and pig-headed and if they are told do/think/say something then they will do their damnedest to do the opposite. Historically we are a nation of under-dog supporters, that's one of the things that used to make us great.

Re my point about patriotism versus xenophobia - why shouldn't I be able to fly a St George's flag? It doesn't make me a foaming at the mouth xenophobe, it makes me patriotic; just because it has been hijacked by some elements of society, doesn't make me part of it. I find it patronising at the very least to be considered in that light and being sneered at in that way is, dare I say it, very East Dulwich.....