Voting to remain

[LondonMix]

I think voting to leave on the assumption it will all be alright because the rest of the EU will collapse in our absence is a bit arrogant. The EU very well may carry on.

If that's how you are rationalising the unsubstantiated idea that outside the EU, the UK is economically better off, I'd give that a lot more thought.

Just make your argument simple Louisa. You don't see yourself as European and therefore you don't want to have a top layer of democratically elected European government, regardless of whatever the economic and other strategic advantages may be.

That's fine but please stop trying to rationalise it with half baked ideas.

[Loz]

In response to the general level of debate around the issue, they have amended the ballot for tomorrow...

[maxxi]

So the arguments on here can be boiled down to "I'm a financial/legal/political expert and know more than you so I'm right and here are some bewildering stats and bogus tables to prove it" and/or "You are an idiot for thinking like you do and you will burn in hell for it".

I don't think it will make much difference tbh and am still 'other' but will vote for the first campaigner of either side who button-holes me today.

Prediction time then?

Stay - 53%

Leave - 47%

Other - 0% (to small a number to register)

[red devil]

maxxi, I take it on Loz's alternative ballot paper that you would be down for the 'chaotic neutral' vote? :)

Good to see you're still the sole 'other' on the EDF poll...you rebel, you

[Loz]

The spread market is currently 53-54 stay and 46-47 leave.

[maxxi]

red devil Wrote:

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> maxxi, I take it on Loz's alternative ballot paper

> that you would be down for the 'chaotic neutral'

> vote? :)

> Good to see you're still the sole 'other' on the

> EDF poll...you rebel, you

As no side has chosen to use The Clash's "Should I Stay Or Should I Go?" as their theme I am putting it forward as the anthem for the 'Others'.

[Loz]

maxxi Wrote:

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> As no side has chosen to use The Clash's "Should I Stay Or Should I Go?" as their theme I am putting

> it forward as the anthem for the 'Others'.

Given the next two lines, I can fully understand the Remain campaign not selecting it.

[Louisa]

LM I am not trying to rationalise anything, I have stated my reasoning behind leaving many times and frankly it must be getting boring for those who don't give a toss either way. The EU will probably collapse at some stage whether we remain or not, no arrogance intended. It's just a failed/failing organisation for the reasons I've stayed and it is unsustainable. It's nothing about seeing myself as European or not. Do you think unemployed Greek 18-35 year olds will be worrying about if they're considered European or whether they can get a job? I personally think the latter is more important to them. I love Europe, I visit other EU states regularly, I enjoy produce from the continent, I shop in Lidl! It's not about nationalism for me at all. It's about democracy, and ta about sustainability.

Louisa.

[Lordship 516]

Jules-and-Boo Wrote:

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> "Lets vote remain and lead within Europe by

> example & press for reform that will be in the

> greater good for Europe as a whole".

>

> yes - well, unfortunately, there is a large sway

> of other countries to influence and win over, if

> we were to push for reform. They would all have to

> want that to happen. Our views, ideals, values

> etc. are all diverse.

>

> In some areas, we are struggling to influence -

> look at transportation of live animals. Other

> countries in EU frankly do not care and this

> reform fails. We have more power to influence our

> OWN reform and thereby influence Europe.

Nope - this will never happen. Vote leave & the UK will be on the sidelines forever & all their influence forgotten as an historic anomoly. The UK was at the forefront of the transportation of live animals & did little until very recently to reform that - it is nonsense to say that other countries don't care; they do care but what is needed is stronger compliance measures in certain countries and inside the EU we can achieve this. If we stay outside we will be told where to get off..!

The very strength of being in the EU is that diversity of opinion - we have to be strong in our convictions & not retire because we meet disagreement. Each thousand mile journey starts with a small step [LaoTzi 6th C BC - not Confucius or Mao Tze Tung as often quoted]. This campaign & referendun has already put the other partners in the EU on notice that reform has to be a main part of the agenda and the UK must use its awakening to spread change across all the spectrum of administration in the EU. Madame Merkel is not a stupid person and she is already under domestic pressure for reform. The UK can now press the way forward during our Presidency of the EU next year and will find many willing partners. Stay outside and we will be regarded as a grumpy old crusty uncle that can only see negatives & disapproval of anything & everything.

[Loz]

Louisa Wrote:

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It's about democracy

But the EU is more democratic than the UK.

[maxxi]

Loz Wrote:

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> maxxi Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> > As no side has chosen to use The Clash's "Should

> I Stay Or Should I Go?" as their theme I am

> putting

> > it forward as the anthem for the 'Others'.

>

> Given the next two lines, I can fully understand

> the Remain campaign not selecting it.

Oh I think there are enough experts on board to explain to the slow-witted electorate that 'double' is actually more manageable than 'trouble' and would lead to a speedier resolution to all matters (particularly those arising around "which clothes even fit me" - a reference to European v UK sizes there I think).

I would have thought the bi-lingual nature of the latter part might have swung it?

"Come on and let me know (Pero tienes que decir)

Should I cool it or should I blow? (?Me debo ir o quedarme?)"

[LondonMix]

I really can't follow what you are saying. You think the young Greeks will get jobs of the EU falls apart? The debt they have is entirely of their own doing. They elected ineffective governments and were professional tax dodgers.

Louisa Wrote:

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> LM I am not trying to rationalise anything, I have

> stated my reasoning behind leaving many times and

> frankly it must be getting boring for those who

> don't give a toss either way. The EU will probably

> collapse at some stage whether we remain or not,

> no arrogance intended. It's just a failed/failing

> organisation for the reasons I've stayed and it is

> unsustainable. It's nothing about seeing myself as

> European or not. Do you think unemployed Greek

> 18-35 year olds will be worrying about if they're

> considered European or whether they can get a job?

> I personally think the latter is more important to

> them. I love Europe, I visit other EU states

> regularly, I enjoy produce from the continent, I

> shop in Lidl! It's not about nationalism for me at

> all. It's about democracy, and ta about

> sustainability.

>

> Louisa.

[LondonMix]

The electorate don't have to be slow witted to be misinformed. There is a reason why we have elected representatives. Sorting through the pros and cons of major legislative decisions is a full time job. MPs have staff and specialists to help advise them as well.

maxxi Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Loz Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > maxxi Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> >

> > > As no side has chosen to use The Clash's

> "Should

> > I Stay Or Should I Go?" as their theme I am

> > putting

> > > it forward as the anthem for the 'Others'.

> >

> > Given the next two lines, I can fully

> understand

> > the Remain campaign not selecting it.

>

> Oh I think there are enough experts on board to

> explain to the slow-witted electorate that

> 'double' is actually more manageable than

> 'trouble' and would lead to a speedier resolution

> to all matters (particularly those arising around

> "which clothes even fit me" - a reference to

> European v UK sizes there I think).

>

> I would have thought the bi-lingual nature of the

> latter part might have swung it?

>

> "Come on and let me know (Pero tienes que decir)

> Should I cool it or should I blow? (?Me debo ir o

> quedarme?)"

[Lordship 516]

Louisa Wrote:

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> root Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> >

> >

> > So what you really want Louisa is to rewind the

> > clocks of Europe back to the 1950s. In the

> face

> > of global superstates like India, China, the

> US,

> > etc, reduce Europe to a bunch of loose dinky

> > insignificant democracies.

>

> Absolutely not root. What I want is for Europe to

> return to democracy, one in which Greece isn't

> threatened with economic sanctions and caught up

> in mass unemployment. A Europe in which Democracy

> is once again returned to the local rather than

> centralised, where decisions can be made for the

> interests of the many and not the few. No-one says

> if the EU collapses we can't still trade with each

> other. Everyone is talking about this market of

> 500 million people, what about the other market of

> 6 billion customers (eg the rest of the world?).

> Calling us loose insignificant democracies is

> missing the point entirely.

>

> Louisa.

Louisa - wonderful idea but not at all practical. I can only quote China where I lived for many years recently. Try to export any metal item to China and you will see the result - no import, not even with duties on top. The Chinese only allow imports of what they want - some luxury goods [usually re-imported after having been manufactured in China] food as they don't grow enough rice even for their own consumption & so on. China regard the UK as a small country - they come here as tourists & to shop in Bond Street. Most of the Chinese students that we get here are from wealthy families and many have failed to gain entry to the Chinese third level colleges. China produces about 6-7 million graduates every year - about 50% of the world total and it is free but only 7% of students [the best] go forward after a brutal Gao Cao [A level] exam. India, South America and Africa are heading in similar directions - massive education programs & harnessing their natural resources for their own advantage. The ideas that Johnson, Farage, Gove & their fellow travellers are hanging on to has long gone - the time of the empire where the UK could dictate her own terms has gone. This is the world that we live in and must face for the future. We need to be a part of a wider coalition of friendly nations - why go looking for such alliances with the prospect of this taking not years but generations to perfect ? We have the EU and we ought to put our energies towards perfecting what we already have.

[binkylilyput]

REMAIN

Anyway, where are people voting? All venues look awkward to get to via public transport to me.......

[Louisa]

LM Greece is far from perfect as a nation, and if anything to me it proves the failings of the EU and more especially the single currency. Nations with completely different cultural, economic and political constructs have inevitably failed to work together and the consequences of the single market are that its not the political classes who suffer, but the ordinary working people! Greece caused its own mess, but if it wasn't restricted by the EU it would be able to deal with that mess independently and possibly more successfully too.

Louisa.

[Lordship 516]

Louisa Wrote:

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> LM Greece is far from perfect as a nation, and if

> anything to me it proves the failings of the EU

> and more especially the single currency. Nations

> with completely different cultural, economic and

> political constructs have inevitably failed to

> work together and the consequences of the single

> market are that its not the political classes who

> suffer, but the ordinary working people! Greece

> caused its own mess, but if it wasn't restricted

> by the EU it would be able to deal with that mess

> independently and possibly more successfully too.

>

> Louisa.

Louisa - I would love to agree with you but you only quote what you want to believe, not the reality. Greece & Ireland fashioned their own economic demise. In Ireland's case they had a corrupt deal going on between Government figures, developers & the banks. However, Ireland accepted their fate, took corrective action and now they have the highest growth in Europe. The UK provided about ?7billion as a loan to Ireland - this was done out of self-interest as Ireland buys more from the UK than does China. In Greece few paid any taxes, VAT was not collected and the various governments borrowed & borrowed to pay the bills & welfare including pensions that Greeks believed was their right despite not contributing towards this benefit. They could have opted to go it alone but they needed EU money & in particular German money so of course there were tough conditions as would be for any borrower who had previously defaulted massively. Had they not been restricted by membership of the Euro, their mess would likely have been even worse with the IMF having to be called in with even more tough conditions being imposed. The Euro had nothing to do with either Ireland's or Greece's problems - but the Eurozone sorted out their problems, albeit with some tough medicine. Ireland buckled down, worked through it and will be out of the woods before 2020. Greece have yet to get to first base, now on their third rescue plan & not going too well.

[steveo]

[LondonMix]

Ah, Greece had that option and overwhelming wanted to stay in. Anyhow, being part of a federation doesn't guarantee anything. The US still has cities that go bankrupt (literally, filed for bankruptcy and defaulted on state pension obligations) in recent years.

Louisa Wrote:

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> LM Greece is far from perfect as a nation, and if

> anything to me it proves the failings of the EU

> and more especially the single currency. Nations

> with completely different cultural, economic and

> political constructs have inevitably failed to

> work together and the consequences of the single

> market are that its not the political classes who

> suffer, but the ordinary working people! Greece

> caused its own mess, but if it wasn't restricted

> by the EU it would be able to deal with that mess

> independently and possibly more successfully too.

>

> Louisa.

[root]

There should have been a new poster showing of the greatest proponents for Brexit. "Gove, Farage, Johnson, Duncan Smith, Galloway, Louisa"

[Loz]

Louisa Wrote:

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> Greece caused its own mess, but if it wasn't restricted by the EU it would be able to deal with that mess

> independently and possibly more successfully too.

They had that option, but rejected it in a referendum in 2015. So they weren't 'restricted by the EU' - they took up the offer of the EU bailout.

I'm not sure it was a great option, anyway. Defaulting on loans and creating the New Drachma would have had massive issues all of it's own.

[Blah Blah]

Greece is always held up as an example of how bad things can go but as we see with Louisa, it's always to suit a misinformed world view.

I do think that leavers are secretly hoping for the fall of the EU. But that would be an economic catastrophe for many smaller economies, and we all know what an unstable Europe descends into.

You never hear leave campaigners trying to emplain the unemployment levels of America, India, China. Yet unemployment within the EU becomes the fault of the EU. Emerging economies are doing so on the backs of cheap exploited labour. We went through that, which is why employment legislation and protections were formed. Are we going to stay stuff all of that so we can become like China? Be careful what you wish for.

[Louisa]

root Wrote:

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> There should have been a new poster showing of the

> greatest proponents for Brexit. "Gove, Farage,

> Johnson, Duncan Smith, Galloway, Louisa"

You missed out Foxy, root. I think it is fair to say that, most of the public faces for 'brexit' are odd-ball larger than life characters. But that doesn't mean that the likes of me aren't well rounded, rational, informative and largely diplomatic individuals.

Louisa.

[Blah Blah]

Rational and informative are big words Louisa, but you are fun to do battle with and I don't think I've ever seen you be rude to anyone.

[rendelharris]

Blah Blah Wrote:

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> Rational and informative are big words Louisa, but

> you are fun to do battle with and I don't think

> I've ever seen you be rude to anyone.

May I agree in that I don't agree with virtually anything Louisa has said on this issue but she has been nothing but courteous. Ah well, this time tomorrow it'll all be over and we can all celebrate/drown our sorrows as appropriate.