Voting to remain

[Earl Aelfheah]

I agree with rendleharris- whilst it's clearly not the only issue, immigration seems to be the one that's gained most traction on the leave side. If we do exit it will probably be anti immigration sentiment that will have carried the day.

The problem of course, is that those who are voting for a significant reduction in the numbers of people coming to the UK are likely to be very disappointed with what happens following an out vote. Most of the economic forecasts for post Brexit have assumed that immigration remains relatively high. As most of our immigration currently comes from outside Europe and is itself in the hundreds of thousands there is little chance of it suddenly being bought down to levels that many 'Leavers' want to see.

So either we'll continue to have relatively high levels of immigration, or there will be even more strain on the economy and further deteriation in public services. Either way, it's hard to understand what is achieved. If people believe there will be more housing, higher wages, or more school places I believe they're going to be disappointed.

Personally, i think we'll see a lot of discontent, from those who are being sold a totally false prospectus from some very cynical careerists I the Conservative party.

[Earl Aelfheah]

... Plus the fact that if we're to re-enter the single market post exit, there will still need to be agreement on free movement of people of course.

[Jeremy]

Anti-immigration sentiment is not always a straight case of racism. If I was in need of social housing and there was none available, I'd probably be anti-immigration to an extent. Those of us in privileged positions often tend to just see the more positive sides of immigration...

[root]

Jeremy Wrote:

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> Anti-immigration sentiment is not always a

> straight case of racism. If I was in need of

> social housing and there was none available, I'd

> probably be anti-immigration to an extent. Those

> of us in privileged positions often tend to just

> see the more positive sides of immigration...

You mean, if you were in a dire situation, you're most likely to blame a foreigner for your misfortune?

[Jeremy]

Well immigration has put increased pressure on public services - housing in particular.

This isn't to say that I'm anti-immigration by any stretch, but it's a more nuanced matter than many will admit. Or are capable of understanding, in some cases.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Jeremy Wrote:

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> Anti-immigration sentiment is not always a

> straight case of racism. If I was in need of

> social housing and there was none available, I'd

> probably be anti-immigration to an extent. Those

> of us in privileged positions often tend to just

> see the more positive sides of immigration...

I wasn't suggesting this. Now that you bring it up though, I do think there is a degree of xenophobic english nationalism at play.

[Jeremy]

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> I wasn't suggesting this. Now that you bring it up

> though, I do think there is a degree of xenophobic

> english nationalism at play.

Yeah, I know you weren't RRR. I largely agree with you... probably the majority of those against immigration fall into the category you describe.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Jeremy Wrote:

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> Well immigration has put increased pressure on

> public services - housing in particular.

Has it? Immigrants contribute more to the economy than they take out. So they are contributing to the public purse. It's up to the government to decide how to spend that money and how much to put into public services. Anyone who thinks that in a post Brexit recession, a Gove and Boris government will be investing more into public services is barking up the wrong tree.

[Louisa]

I think Jeremy makes a valid point. Here in London, certain people do not wish to confront the issue of immigration because it goes against their utopian left of field view of the world. The reality of course is, whether you agree it is a valid concern or not, when you're living in a nice comfy London bubble away from regions with high unemployment, social and political disenfranchisement, and a lack of a future you will start blaming specific groups- that of course is unfounded and disproportionate in the minds of fairly well off London guardian readers - but that's how these people feel on the street. Rather than mock them and suggest their opinion is ignorant and not relevant, I believe it is better to address their concerns and speak openly about them rather than brush them under the carpet.

Louisa.

[Earl Aelfheah]

I do find the anti immigration rhetoric pretty depressing. I have two friends in particular, who can barely bring themselves to talk about it, they are so upset. It may sound OTT, but you can see that they're genuinely shocked and hurt by the strength of anti immigration feeling. They have taken it very personally and no longer feel welcome in the UK (perhaps they're not). It's really horrible.

[Jeremy]

RRR - yes you could argue that if the govt don't provide proportionately more social housing, then that's their fault (or ours for voting them in, if you like). I wouldn't really disagree. But realistically I don't see it happening any time soon.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Louisa Wrote:

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> I think Jeremy makes a valid point. Here in

> London, certain people do not wish to confront the

> issue of immigration because it goes against their

> utopian left of field view of the world. The

> reality of course is, whether you agree it is a

> valid concern or not, when you're living in a nice

> comfy London bubble away from regions with high

> unemployment, social and political

> disenfranchisement, and a lack of a future you

> will start blaming specific groups- that of course

> is unfounded and disproportionate in the minds of

> fairly well off London guardian readers - but

> that's how these people feel on the street. Rather

> than mock them and suggest their opinion is

> ignorant and not relevant, I believe it is better

> to address their concerns and speak openly about

> them rather than brush them under the carpet.

>

> Louisa.

No one is brushing the topic of immigration under the carpet. We hear this all the time... "you can't talk about immigration". It's nonsense, it's discussed endlessly, to the point where it receives a completely disproportionate amount of attention.

[Mick Mac]

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> I do find the anti immigration rhetoric pretty

> depressing. I have two friends in particular, who

> can barely bring themselves to talk about it, they

> are so upset. It may sound OTT, but you can see

> that they're genuinely shocked and hurt by the

> strength of anti immigration feeling. They have

> taken it very personally and no longer feel

> welcome in the UK (perhaps they're not). It's

> really horrible.

(apart from racists) its the open door policy that people don't like, not immigrants themselves - its a poor EU policy that needs to be constrained imo. I'd rather stay in but deal with the immigration question within the EU. It sort of assumes each country might have something equal to offer, but in reality some countries have a greater draw than others and some have very little attraction. And a bit like the north south divide in the UK, people will be attracted to the stronger economic areas, who at the moment cant necessarily cope with additional people.

Its a very socialist European concept and we aren't a particularly socialist country.

[Louisa]

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> Louisa Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I think Jeremy makes a valid point. Here in

> > London, certain people do not wish to confront

> the

> > issue of immigration because it goes against

> their

> > utopian left of field view of the world. The

> > reality of course is, whether you agree it is a

> > valid concern or not, when you're living in a

> nice

> > comfy London bubble away from regions with high

> > unemployment, social and political

> > disenfranchisement, and a lack of a future you

> > will start blaming specific groups- that of

> course

> > is unfounded and disproportionate in the minds

> of

> > fairly well off London guardian readers - but

> > that's how these people feel on the street.

> Rather

> > than mock them and suggest their opinion is

> > ignorant and not relevant, I believe it is

> better

> > to address their concerns and speak openly

> about

> > them rather than brush them under the carpet.

> >

> > Louisa.

>

> No one is brushing the topic of immigration under

> the carpet. We hear this all the time... "you

> can't talk about immigration". It's nonsense, it's

> discussed endlessly, to the point where it

> receives a completely disproportionate amount of

> attention.

Disproportionate in who's eyes? The unemployed former steel worker who can't get a job or pay their mortgage? or the mortgage free banker who's just bought a new investment property in Clapham?

Louisa.

[LadyNorwood]

In any other country it would be called patriotism, in this country it's xenophobia....

[Earl Aelfheah]

Leaving the EU won't actually address issues of immigration. If we try to do a Swiss / Norwegian type trade deal in order to regain access to the single market, we'll have to accept free movement anyway. People will of course move around Europe if they can and they'll go where the jobs are, but that of course is also where the demand for labour is too.

[Earl Aelfheah]

LadyNorwood Wrote:

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> In any other country it would be called

> patriotism, in this country it's xenophobia....

They're different things. You can be incredibly proud of your country, (for reasons which may even include it's openness to the world, to trade and people from other places). Being fearful of foreigners has nothing to do with patriotism.

[Louisa]

LadyNorwood Wrote:

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> In any other country it would be called

> patriotism, in this country it's xenophobia....

The reality is with most people it is neither. Most people just want to have a job, home of their own and good health. All things which, in some mind's (rightly or wrongly) are under threat from uncontrolled immigration.

Louisa.

[root]

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> I do find the anti immigration rhetoric pretty

> depressing. I have two friends in particular, who

> can barely bring themselves to talk about it, they

> are so upset. It may sound OTT, but you can see

> that they're genuinely shocked and hurt by the

> strength of anti immigration feeling. They have

> taken it very personally and no longer feel

> welcome in the UK (perhaps they're not). It's

> really horrible.

It is very very much the case.

[root]

LadyNorwood Wrote:

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> In any other country it would be called

> patriotism, in this country it's xenophobia....

I think you're mistaking patriotism for ultra-nationalism.

[Louisa]

What I find more depressing is people sat in their ivory tower in London feeling sad about the rhetoric surrounding immigration, which of course further reinforces the view in the poorest regions that the political elite in this city are totally out of touch with the rest of the country. Try telling a family who have been sat on the housing waiting list for years in Derby or Preston that it's sad we are talking about immigration all the time. Some people may well feel we aren't talking about it enough.

Louisa.

[Jeremy]

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> No one is brushing the topic of immigration under

> the carpet. We hear this all the time... "you

> can't talk about immigration". It's nonsense, it's

> discussed endlessly

It's a taboo subject within liberal circles though... specifically because there will always be one worthier-than-thou person who is offended by a balanced discussion.

[root]

Louisa Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> What I find more depressing is people sat in their

> ivory tower in London feeling sad about the

> rhetoric surrounding immigration, which of course

> further reinforces the view in the poorest regions

> that the political elite in this city are totally

> out of touch with the rest of the country. Try

> telling a family who have been sat on the housing

> waiting list for years in Derby or Preston that

> it's sad we are talking about immigration all the

> time. Some people may well feel we aren't talking

> about it enough.

>

Maybe london should exit the UK. To heck with all the riffraff outside the M25.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Jeremy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> rahrahrah Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > No one is brushing the topic of immigration

> under

> > the carpet. We hear this all the time... "you

> > can't talk about immigration". It's nonsense,

> it's

> > discussed endlessly

>

> It's a taboo subject within liberal circles

> though... specifically because there will always

> be one worthier-than-thou person who is offended

> by a balanced discussion.

I've not found that personally, but perhaps i'm mixing in the wrong circles ;-)

[Earl Aelfheah]

Louisa Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> What I find more depressing is people sat in their

> ivory tower in London feeling sad about the

> rhetoric surrounding immigration, which of course

> further reinforces the view in the poorest regions

> that the political elite in this city are totally

> out of touch with the rest of the country. Try

> telling a family who have been sat on the housing

> waiting list for years in Derby or Preston that

> it's sad we are talking about immigration all the

> time. Some people may well feel we aren't talking

> about it enough.

>

> Louisa.

That assumes that the failure of successive governments to build social housing, whilst selling off the stock we have is in fact the fault of immigrants, which I disagree with. I would happily tell those people that I think their anger is misdirected and that in my view we need to refocus the debate towards the real cause of their problems. Of course they may disagree, but I stand by my view.