Bizzy

Indiepanda It sounds like you've had some unfortunate eperiences with religion. I personally don't know much about JW, or the Catholic Church. It's true, there are plenty of Churches that look after themselves, and it doesn't take long to find out, which is a cue to move on to another Church in my opinion. On the other hand, there are Churches that do pray for everyone, and not just their own congregation. There are also Churches that do a lot for their community. Exclusive groups - that is true for many groups out there, religious or other. Belonging to a Christian group shouldn't be seen as something exclusive, as it's their aim to bring as many people to Christ.

RosieH Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > It seems to me that there's a little smugness on > both sides of this argument... If the Alpha > Course isn't for you, does it need to be shot down > in flames? > > Or am I being terribly naive: is it actually some > kind of fundamentalist Christianity and goes on to > preach hatred in some form or another? > > I know many Christians for whom their faith brings > them great comfort and peace, and who live their > life contributing to the community and helping > others. I see nothing wrong with that. In fact, > I think it's rather admirable and there's a small > part of me that envies them that conviction and > succour. It's not for me, but I wouldn't tell > them they were wrong for thinking that way. > > I don't see how telling someone they're wrong to > believe is any better than being told you're wrong > not to. Nobody is wrong when they don't believe in something they know very little about. It's like asking someone that has never had a driving lesson to drive a car. How can one expect someone to drive without crashing? They could take lessons... Similarly when you go to Church for the first time, one shouldn't expect immediate results. Its a learning process like LE has expressed, it's something you grow in, which in my experience leaves you wanting more. Simply put, God doesn't expect people to believe in God that don't know what God is about although; God would really like it if they did. That is why it's down to Christians to spread the word.

Jeremy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Bizzy, in a way I respect your "heart on sleeve" > attitude here. But if you can't even answer the > most obvious of questions (which Snorky is > asking), surely you can't have thought about your > beliefs in much depth. > > It's healthy to question things... in science and > philosophy, no progress would ever be made if we > didn't have great thinkers who challenged > established beliefs. So why aren't you asking > questions? Why should religion be exempt from > scrutiny by its followers? I was happy to answer questions but by the end of page four of this thread, I was beginning to wonder if people were looking to find holes in my answers and some of the points people are making are simply trying to "take the mick" or stir up even. If anyone is serious about their questions, simple or not, they can go to one of the many courses out there. Indiepanda The whole point of *lecturing* to others about Christianity is to spread the word, there is nothing smug about it, but there is a common notion where people think Christians feel they are above others. Where it comes from, I don't know, hence Huguenot said it. And that's why I have no interest in being part of a religion. It's hard to find any that aren't more interested in serving themselves - I think they believe when Jesus said "love thy neighbour" that there was a limit on "neighbour" to people who follow the same religion. Where is your evidence to back this up? You've made quite an assumption there.

snorky Wrote: > > Which God was it then ? there seems to be a few > obviously - I dont want to waste my time > worshipping false Idols and all that shit - I'm a > busy man > > Are Hindus godless cos they dont worship your > proper authentic God ? does that mean that 10% of > the worlds populace may be screwed come decision > day, just cos they made the wrong choice of God, > yet may have lived decent lives ? > > Should I ask Jesus for forgiveness on my death > bed, I will be granted a free pass into Heaven > apparently - so why bother spending all your life > worshipping him,we hen a few quite morphine > clouded seconds at the end of your hedonistic is > all that you need? > > why does god let babies die or allow disease & > injury to maim & disable children who have done no > wrong ? > > Why does the Pope still force followers of his > brand of religion to live shitty, poverty ridden > lives , banging out kids every year or so , cos > they cant use decent contraception - is this the > same god ? are catholcis wrong ? will catholics > go to heaven , even though they seem to have got > it all wrong ? > > Questions , Questions The Alpha course would be an ideal place for you to ask all your questions. Unfortunately I can't answer all of them. If you're really serious about finding out, why not try it out?

Cassius Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > " I scarcely know what happens in my society > because I didn't know about a guy who was arrested > four years before I was born? " > > I knew about the Moors Murderers and that was > before I was born. I knew about them too. Just hadn't heard of Peter Sutcliffe. What's your point?

indiepanda Wrote: > How exactly do you know that no Christian has ever > lectured Hugenot in a smug way?? That's a very > dogmatic statement for something you have no > evidence that is true.... but then I guess as a > believer you get plenty of practice believing in > things there is little evidence for. > > Unless you are actually telling us that you are in > fact God and have therefore witnessed every > conversation Hugenot has ever had with a Christian > and can prove that the smugness was all in his > mind? Huguenot said it :-S. Try asking him why he/she thinks all Christians who lecture others why they stroll around with a smugness.

Huguenot, I *could* say the same for you, in that the universal truth of your post is ignorance personified. I wasn't lecturing anyone. I was simply trying to answer questions. I scarcely know what happens in my society because I didn't know about a guy who was arrested four years before I was born? I didn't suggest you can 'pick and choose' what is written in the Bible. The Old Testament is a collection of books telling a story. The New Testament contains the writings of the early Christian period and words of Jesus Christ. We didn't have a Christian union at 6th form college. Mixed up kids? I assume you?re long in the tooth, thinking anyone younger than you can't be right or have anything valid to say. Living a Christian lifestyle is more than going to a weekly meeting, and as I said before, more than going to Church weekly and quoting scriptures. When a Christian *lectures* others on their beliefs, it shouldn't be done in smugness. The smugness you see is what your previous thoughts / advice / opinions have planted into your head. "A religion is something different, and by necessity dogmatic and expansionist. It requires suspension of critical faculties and obeisance to the organisational hierarchy. This isn't being saved, it's being mugged." What exactly am I being mugged of? By being so ignorant, are you not experiencing a suspension of critical faculties yourself? ;-)

Very young. I thought Peter Sutcliffe was a Footballer before I googled it.

Just had to google Peter Sutcliffe as I didn't know who he was. I can confirm it wasn't my God that gave him that personal message. So you do believe God made you? Good start.

I very much doubt that the Alpha Course was designed to bring in a steady flow of income. I like to think of a course like that as people dedicating their time to other people they don't know. How often do we see that today? Do you think these courses are run just to lure people in then take their cash? :-S

Snorky - why so aggressive? "All religion keeps you down, its makes to toe the line, it ensures generations of unthinking slavery and obedience - it is shite There - no more pussyfooting around, no dancing around the subject any longer - no more tolerance of this nasty, sneering underhand , pervasive and accepted version of mass oppression. hang the vicars and imans, garrote the Pope and think for yourselves" Religion has taught me to think for myself.

Mark, It was not my intention to be arrogant. Saving or being saved, is another metaphorical term used when one has accepted Christ as their savior. With regard to the Old Testament books you have quoted - Exodus 21:7 - this should not be read as a verse on its own. That chapter actually relates to the laws of justice at the time. Of course it would be wrong to do in this day and age. It's not something a Christian must believe in just because it is in the Bible, a book retelling a story. Christianity wasn't even thought about when those rules were made. Lev 20:21 - A literal interpretation taken.

Jeremy, The Bible does say this although not so much in those words.

Mark, The truth I talk of is a metaphorical term, used to describe being a Christian and the understanding of being a Christian, not just going to Church on Sundays and quoting scriptures but living day-today by the word of God. In answer to your question about why Jesus gave up: God sent his son as a sacrifice for everyone?s sins, as he loved the world so much God did it in the hope that we may believe and accept him. PeckhamRose, You have a typical atheist view, nothing wrong with that of course, stating that nothings been proven for sure, yet you give a lot of your time to accepting that nothing has been proven and never will, even though there *could* be proof to the contrary; which you just haven't seen :)

Snorky, Don't subscribe to all this old fashioned "you will burn in hell" stuff. God is far more compassionate to people who don't know the truth than to those who know the truth and refuse to believe or share. PeckhamRose, Sounds like you have been *brainwashed*. Not all churches are run like a business ;-)

Not to put any Atheist?s off but - # - It is hard to understand the Bible when you haven?t accepted Jesus as your savior. Before becoming a Christian and truly understanding what it meant to be a Christian, I could debate all day about different meanings you could glean from the Bible. In my youth, my main aim for joining the Christian student union was to meet the student nurses that ran the weekly sessions. That was my first mistake as I wasn't sincere about finding out the truth and I was constantly looking for counter arguments and *trying* to pull. During my time at college, I was amazed at how peaceful and controlled some of the people at the union were, even with some really nasty experiences they were going through in their lives. I saw this and thought, I want whatever they?re having? # - Hillsong - Yes, they seem well off and it seems like a big aerobics event but they are spreading the word to a younger generation and seem to be saving a lot of people by doing something different. Like most denominations, you can't fault their main intentions.

I once got a cancer diagnosis letter from Kings along with my appointment letter. It was days before I was due to go in and have a lump looked at. The diagnosis letter was for someone else but it had somehow been included with my appointment letter. I took the letter with me to my appointment and handed it to the receptionist there who looked very embarrassed about it. Another time I turned up to an appointment 5 minutes early, and was called in immediately. The waiting room was packed and I felt really bad just turning up and going in as you usually prepare yourself for a long wait. Some of the other patients had clearly been waiting longer than me one of them shouted out that her appointment was an hour before. I've never had problems with the specialist staff at Kings. I find the administration is a bit poor, and when you're dealing with sensitive information the administration has to be spot on.

Paki for short? I don't think so. Paki isn't even a recognised word - said in any context is wrong! I hate to think what you would call someone from Niger. Get it right.

Peckham Rose Everyone knows Atheist's exist. To be blunt (but not nasty) the issues you put forward are trivial and loose. # - which has Bishops in the House of Lords - I?m sure there?s a few Atheist's in there too # - has a law that says we have to all pay towards the BBC when the BBC only allows religious people to have a Thought For The Day - I have to pay taxes to causes I?d rather not fund. Who watches BBC anyway? Who needs a broadcaster to tell them what to think about for the day? # - uses taxes from all of us to fund faith schools - My monthly travel card expense funds TFL bus routes I don't even know about let alone use... # - discriminates against those (teachers) of other faiths or no faith working in faith schools - don't know the full extent of this, but probably the most plausible point made. I can understand discrimination against a teacher of a certain faith working in a school of another faith, but what would an Atheist be doing teaching in a faith school? Surely working in an environment which has causes that go against their beliefs is a form of suppression.

Hello This is probably the wrong place for a first post and some of you have strong views but this thread stood out. The ad campaign is all well and good but what is it trying to do? I narrowed it down to the following: 1) Convert people to Atheism - (Yes, I know it's not a religion but why would an Atheist care about someone elses beliefs when they have no faith?) 2) Make people think about it - (Most people who believe in God will have sympathy and nothing else for anyone to takes heed of the slogan) 3) Something for someone to do because they were bored - (I read somewhere that this was to counter some similar Christian efforts done some time ago, I like a challenge too) Can anyone add to this? Or can anyone refute any of these assumptions? Bizzy