Bizzy

Mockney Piers, I'm not well versed in the historical facts and trends mentioned but I accept that they are probably accurate. I believe a true Christian lives by Christian morals, teachings and values - putting God before anything they do. Taking one of your examples of a revolutionary preacher - when he / she decide to preach hate or prejudice messages, they are not putting God first; they are simply putting themselves first. There's a total disregard / misinterpretation which is frightening. The second commandment states one should love thy neighbour as you love yourself. As you may know, this doesn't mean love all that only go to your Church and hate everyone else. It means, love everyone regardless. Historians can carry on trying to fathom what constitutes a true Christian - but they will continue to go round in circles until they realise that a group or person proclaiming to be a Christian, who deliberately ignores Christian teachings should be disregarded as being a Christian.

Just to clarify: If a so called Christian uses the Bible as an easy excuse to commit any wrongdoing; simply put, they are not Christian as they've shown a complete disregard for Christian morals / values / teachings. It's quite easy to take this particular example at face value, one should notice that the perpetrators of the crime are obviously crazy or they have forgotten the true morals of their faith. This applies to all forms of hatred, prejudice etc. justified in the name religion.

All ISP's MUST give you your MAC code on request and on the spot. The transfer usually takes 6 - 10 days with a loss of connection for a few hours on the day of transfer. BT - Avoid. Started off as the best ISP, but they have slowly implemented all sorts T&C's and don't offer value for money. Check your bill they have you on the right package you initially signed up for!! O2 - Uses ADSL2. They managed to double the bandwidth BT could manage down the same line. They reckon I can get up to 13MBps but im yet to witness this. Talk Talk / Tiscali - Everyone I know who use these ISP's have issues. They're probably good for low bandwidth tasks like checking e-mail and playing Pacman multiplayer online.

All ISP's MUST give you your MAC code on request and on the spot. The transfer usually takes 6 - 10 days with a loss of connection for a few hours on the day of transfer. BT - Avoid. Started off as the best ISP, but they have slowly implemented all sorts T&C's and don't offer value for money. Check your bill they have you on the right package you initially signed up for!! O2 - Uses ADSL2. They managed to double the bandwidth BT could manage down the same line. They reckon I can get up to 13MBps but im yet to witness this. Talk Talk / Tiscali - Everyone I know who use these ISP's have issues. They're probably good for low bandwidth tasks like checking e-mail and playing Pacman multiplayer online.

Gosh - how terrible and sad to hear how people can be so callous under such circumstances. Not fair to knock all religions though. Bizzy

Nice to see you reading some scriptures! >:D< I don't want to scare anyone on this board, hence no attempt to convert. It's not very sincere if you quote something you don't believe in :-S

Annaj You got your wires crossed. I'm not getting into an argument about this. Life is too short.

Keef, I have tried to express the fact that people outside Christianity do have their own beliefs. I can see that you respect other people?s beliefs. There is a common notion for people to think that if someone talks about Christianity, they are preaching and nothing else. I know I'm *trying* to answer questions but why do people see my answers as a put down? Think of my posts as being someone of the Christian faith *trying* to explain why he believes.

So what, you can congratulate me for confirming your belief that there is no God? I just made a comment on your posts, you made a comment on decision in life!

Keef I can't say what people want to hear. that would just be wrong ;-)

Annaj By the tone of your posts it's quite obvious. Snorky As I have said before i'm not trying to convert on this board. Get it right.

Keef, Noah being 950 years old - why could it not have been possible for people to live longer back then than they can today? The world has deteriorated so much since the times of Noah. Matey who mentioned Attenborough ? maybe he can explain this better. I don't see how someone?s view can change by what I had just said. Am I missing the point? Annaj I'm sorry this thread has had such an effect on you although I'm left wondering as to why you felt the need to congratulate me on something I had *clearly* not set out to do. Another close minded dig perhaps?

At school, RE isn't taught to convert. It's taught to educate people on other beliefs. Sue Nice comparative use of 1:Zillion there. Sometimes God puts people through difficult situations, and carries them through it so that they can witness to others. If a madman cuts short someone else?s life, it's a disaster created by man at the cost of another man?s life. God could intervene, but God gave man the choice of free will to do as he pleases, from living a Christian life to denouncing the existing of God to "doing things my way".

Mockney piers, Unfortunately, I don't have all the answers ;-) My guess is people would have traveled, moved about etc which may explain diversity today - I?m not a historian so I don't know for sure. Many of the Babylonians and Egyptians wouldn't have had any part, and may have even joined the chosen people.

Lozzyloz, Understandably, you have taken it ever so slightly out of context. Having arrived at that conclusion, what you see as being more to life will be different to what I see.

Note to all: Please don?t read first paragraph if you don?t like Bible talk. I hope this causes no offence. Jeremy, In reference to Noah's Ark - I take it literally. God, was unhappy, and therefore unleashed his wrath upon the world. This was before Jesus paid the ultimate price, therefore once you had sinned, you had sinned. If you have read the gospels, or seen the Passion of Christ, you would have seen that Jesus could have done many things to get out of his predicament. Yet Jesus knew that he had to pay the price, so that sinners could repent and ask for forgiveness, in effect gaining choice of free will. We are human beings, and are always going to make mistakes, it?s human nature but again, we have choice of free will. This stems from the story of Adam and Eve, having been tricked into eating from the tree of knowledge, sin entering into the world. How would you define a well balanced individual? Sean, I thought your post was a rant, though I thoroughly agree that shouting abuse and slanging gets people nowhere. I did miss your point on your theory of how we became. Being a rational surely means you have a starting point, and work your way logically backwards / forwards to a solution? As you have stated you have a low tolerance for irrationality, would you not be doing yourself injustice by leaving something as "it just is?? Also, my point about being happy and going nowhere. Many people are happy without religion; they have money, family, drugs, cars - material possessions. With Christianity, I realised life wasn't just about women, sex, money, Aston Martins, private schooling etc. You're born into this world with nothing, you will leave with nothing.

Sean, We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this ;-). I understand the position you're in, but it does sound like you're putting someone down for having faith in God. If someone has a belief in anything, you don't throw it out the window and label it fiction because it's lacking rationality in your narrow view, it needs an element of tact. You know full well I wasn't commanding you, and then you go and ridicule me by quoting from the Bible, was that really necessary? I give respect to everyone?s beliefs whether I know them or not, whether I think they?re right or wrong, of course they can lose my respect but that?s a different matter. Jeremy, I can give you the short answer and that is no, I don't think there is anything morally dubious in the Bible. Once again I can't explain why without being accused of going into preaching mode and offend anyone, even though it's not my intention to preach but rather educate. Sarah J I think it's wonderful that we live in a country where we are free to practice any religion, or not as the case may be and also debate about them.

SeanMacGabhann Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > The three, no-less-true-despite-being-obvious, > examples you quote quids were not operating under > the banner of secularism nor aethism - they were > just ... well you can use your own adjective > here. > > But nor were they operating in a vacuum. Rome for > example was all too aware of Hitler's operations. > It's inaction tells us all we need to know. I > remember growing up in Ireland and hearing stories > of local churches blessing guns bound for Germany. > And whilst the Catholic church found time to ban > Lady Chatterly et al, Mein Kampf remained > un-banned. If I focus on catholocism, be assured > it is only because that is my background and may > every little black-hearted christian brother who > beat me with a lead-filled leather strap find > forgiveness and redemption in... oh dear me no. > There is no redemption. But really, if I say > catholocism, you can insert the religion of your > choice Bizzy. I have no fear* of insulting Islam > just as much > > * I say no fear. Clearly many of "the faith" are > more deranged than others and would happily have > me and my family. And probably all those who read > this forum. It doesn't make them right. > > I should also point out that in fairness, some of > the christian brothers who taught me were > genuinely sound, Good Guys. Interestingly, of the > 3 Good Guys, 1 commited suicide and 2 left the > brotherhood/catholic church. Again, make your own > judgements Sounds like you have something against the Catholic Church, as is the case with most of the anti religion posters here. It may suprise you but I also disagree with some of the Catholic ideas. Jeremy, I just want to make this clear. Not all Christians pick and choose what they want to believe. It's a common thing and it does happen, but if this is the only thing you have against Religion, then you need to open your ears more and try something new.

Sean If you have a problem in dealing with irrational thoughts, YOU have to sort it out as you're going to meet many more people who may not necessarily be irrational but to you they are. Don't call it fiction. It's my beliefs, have some respect. Don't dismiss it when you don't know the half of it. I'm glad you have people that can vouch for you - do you really need your friends to tell you that? I would have taken your word for it. I?m not talking for all religions here. You make it sound like all Sunday sermons in church across the country are preaching hatred. Where do you get these ideas from? Saying "ahh but someone who is an aetheist blew up Monument X" is not ascribable to a faith. Aethiests are not a shared common belief system - you could say the same about the denominations in Christianity. You say religion taught you to think for yourself. yet to complain when people who actually think for themselves "pick holes" in your arguments. I wasn't complaining about anything! Stop thinking what you want to see. I was making a statement about people looking to pick holes - at a time when I thought a few posters were taking the mick. You were obviously unhappy and have found some peace in faith. I don't really begrudge you that What makes you think I was unhappy? Maybe I was happy, but going nowhere. Have you already painted a picture of me as some kind of nutcase that found religion? You?re putting yourself on a pedestal and thinking a little too rationally. Is it so bad? yes - it's downright weird - who would create such a thing, leave us to our own devices, judge us - and WHY would they? It's dark outside.. whistle if you need to - but it doesn't mean anything So what is your theory and how humans came about? If you don't have a theory, your irrational sensors will go wild? You go for Darwins theory? I don?t get your point on that one. Why did you decide to blow your horn now? Were my irrational thoughts going unpunished?

So Mark and Sean are rational human beings, they can neither see, hear, smell, taste nor touch God, therefore God is not there. Sean ? life is too short to resent anything. Why is it that some Atheists are hell bent on getting back at others who don?t share their beliefs? If you think about the size of the universe, the intricacies of the human body, you're eyes are better than any camera around, the miracle of childbirth, emotions we experience...the list goes on. Is it so bad to think that a higher being could have made this? To those who state that God was dreamt up in mans mind - who do you think gave man that idea? ;-)

Looks like your campaign failed then >:D< Sorry, you set yourself up for that one...;-)

Marmora Man, The bus slogan campaign was built up on the premise that people of religion constantly worry and don't enjoy life because they are led by religion. I can honestly say, Christianity teaches me not to worry, and I certainly do enjoy life ;-)

No I don't agree. Some of these instructions are not literal and require some interpretation. The beauty of the Bible is some people read into these things and come out with some foolish stuff. I'll admit this happens in Churches today. I'm not keen on theologists, researchers, and authors reading the Bible with a sceptical view looking for answers(Dan Brown comes to mind) because you?re always going to get some misconstrued outcome at the end of it. It?s just a waste of their time. It's very hard to explain what I mean without offending anyone.

Mockney piers, No,not related to Dubya >:D< No need to be impressed, it?s laid out clearly in the Bible as to what pleases/displeases God. Dulwichmum, There are plenty of sick people everywhere. If an Atheist did something despicable, I wouldn't class anyone without religion as being tolerant of what this one other Atheist has done. When you say the RC Church or Christianity in general, you are in effect classing a large group of people by what a few of them have done. Mark So because the statistics mentioned in the *blogspot* are from a Catholic source, they must be wrong? If you go about not wanting to even open your ears to the fact that there may be a God, you end up constantly looking for flaws etc. All your posts seem to iterate the same thing.

RosieH Can't give you my stance on sensitive issues without backing up what I say, and as this is seen as *preaching* I will refrain from answering. People who aren't interested - I don't persist, and to be honest I don't go out to convert. If it arises in conversation I will talk about it but I don't wake up thinking I?m going to convert 13 people today. Huguenot I read your posts and am still none the wiser as to what your point is. All I seem to get from them is some kind of hostile damning of everything I believe and how good you are (I dunno what the correlation is). Who are you trying to impress? If you're looking for an argument you won't get one from me. I also seem to be considerably better informed than you about the outside world. - I may not be better informed than you, but I get by with what I know. I certainly wouldn't say something like that to someone else even if it was true. Mark It wasn't my intention to *preach*, but to explain some points I had to go into a bit of detail. Point taken.