Otto2

I have never voiced that opinion Alice.

Not really Alice - there are three different opinions here and I know them all very well and I am very much friends with all of them despite the differences. "I know three different households on Ed Grove. The first -- a young couple who rent a tiny flat are very much in favour of the LTN's. The second, a homeowner with a high value property is against them and very active in campaigning for removal. The third, another homeowner in a property of lesser value than the anti-person is both for and against and thinks they could be tweaked and electric cars solve all etc."

I know three different households on Ed Grove. The first -- a young couple who rent a tiny flat are very much in favour of the LTN's. The second, a homeowner with a high value property is against them and very active in campaigning for removal. The third, another homeowner in a property of lesser value than the anti-person is both for and against and thinks they could be tweaked and electric cars solve all etc.

Yes - our street was consulted on placement. I volunteered to have it in front of my house as I (and my adjacent neighbours)do not have a car. Those opposed had it relocated down the street in a place with no street lamps (making it tricky after dark). I think car owners can def steer these things to where they feel is best.

I should say, when our street got one of the first bike hangars, most everyone was opposed in the beginning. The residents on our street were then asked individually by some sort of council process and enough said "oh okay". Now, everyone wants a spot in it (a waiting list) and I don't think it irks anyone anymore save one household.

From Southwark Council: "Bike hangars in Southwark - do you need one in your street? We want to know how many people are interested and where the most requested locations are" (Southwark Council twitter)... Link to request: https://cyclehangarsinsouthwark.commonplace.is/

That would be amazing. Segregated lanes AND Santander. Sounds do-able. Pity Santander does not do child-carrying bikes -- that would be handy around here for so many but if the lanes were segregated, little people presumably could ride their own with no probs.

"But we will challenge anything in the process or the final results that shows bias, misleading data, or selective reporting." Okay. This is a fresh report - go for it. I'm not a data expert by any means but I think it looks like it was done with care and I'm not inclined to react conspiratorially at this point.

Hi rahrahrah - Overall, the LTN measures are overwhelmingly supported. Each measure is broken down into answers and some are less supported, but, for the most part, a majority in favour. The report also breaks down comments giving the percentages that responded in worries to specific issues. It also distinguishes between those in zone a, b, and c, borders, and "others" as far as responses which makes it an interesting read overall. Edit - direct link: https://www.southwark.gov.uk/assets/attach/42203/OHS-Phase-3-Consultation-Summary-Report.pdf

Here's a link to the results of the phase 3 consultation: https://www.southwark.gov.uk/transport-and-roads/improving-our-streets/live-projects/our-healthy-streets/our-healthy-streets-dulwich

For pollution data nerds... https://www.walthamforest.gov.uk/sites/default/files/WalthamForest_Kings%20Report_310718.pdf

I agree some are "next level" -- Pedal me guys are perfect for larger loads. I was thinking "cargo" more along the lines of what Karim linked to here: https://sigo.green Or, for kid ferrying, a Nihola - they can be rented in Dulwich Park but only for use in the park...

Rockets - the cycle hoops that store cargo bikes can store 3 bikes - you couldn't store 3 cars in the same space! Not everyone needs a cargo bike (and really, ours is a bit of a luxury but it started life as a tandem for our kids). We did not have one for a long while -- you'd be surprised what two panniers and a bag bungee'd on top of a back rack can hold - groceries for a family of 4 for a week for starters! I'd love to see some sort of cargo bike rental/share scheme locally...

Hi First Mate - Cargo bikes - mine is parked in the living room. I've applied for a cycle hangar to store it outside - they now have hangars to fit them. We do not have a car so, eventually, this seems do-able when the council can provide. I'd buy my own if it were allowed to take up a parking space. The very obvious solution is we buy a van in the meantime and park it in there outside but of course, that is a bit ridiculous. Not everyone can store a cargo bike - that is for sure. PedalMe is a cargo bike service one can use to move people or goods around. The price of using them is less or in keeping with other motorised vehicles - they have large trailers and can move huge loads. And they also have models that move people - a bike-phobic friend of mine used them recently and felt secure and loved her ride as they are well-trained expert riders! I think it would be super useful if there was secure bike parking and cargo bike rental/share near Lordship Lane. I think it could be self-sustaining if perhaps a coffee shop and baked goods etc were integrated to add some income streams. Thanks for the great photos Karim!

I've lived in a city with too many cars (NYC) for the amount of road space - a future we are heading towards here in London. This is a complex issue - involving sheer volume of car users, pollution, global warming, the health of people etc - a mix of the above. In NYC the alternative side of the street parking rules pretty much made owning a car a pain in the *** as one would have to wake up early and move the car to the other side of the street daily and there were never enough spaces for the cars to shift, leading people to sit in their cars for an hour with a cup of coffee to nab one. This pretty much discouraged everyone from thinking they needed a car. Of course, there was 24 hour good mass transport and the flat rate for it did not punish people on lower incomes that often lived further out - everyone paid the same. Beyond that - the suburbs - commuters took public transport as parking near the office was too expensive or unavailable. Bike lanes have gone in in NYC since my time there and there was much outrage, resistance etc but they are starting to bed in and be accepted. London is a growing city. It needs to make these changes. It is a good city for cycling and walking and most people can change for at least some journeys and that would be a massive good start. I agree with exdulwicher that "it'll still be a traffic jam" and what you are seeing now is nothing like what you will see if we all carry on - in fact, I'd not call any of this traffic a traffic jam compared to what I've lived through in NYC. Change is so tricky. But, we must.

Thank you good Alice - if you would like to post a list of those of whom you consider to be the most excellent on this topic I will direct my attention correctly.

Oh Mr. Chicken I really love how you reinforce the stereotypes of all cyclists are lycra kings. Keep the good stuff going - blinder the eyes so we cannot see the children and mums and older folks riding and walking more - such a distraction. Thank you Mr. Chicken - you are my favourite mathematician for simplifying things and making it so much easier to understand. Perhaps you had inspiration to agree with those who despise LTN's in this glorious vision of Lycra Kings - so good you are coming to view things from the other perspective with such clarity.

Kerry2015 - Snapery Bread avail at Jones of Brockley as well as Oru... I will miss Franklins Farm Shop too...

What do you think is the best way to make bikes easy to use? They def are smaller than cars so more on street parking would be beneficial and space-effective. What else would be good?

Also - many small curvy roads in Vienna have cycle paths....

Storage is an issue. We are a household of 4 cyclists with no car. We have two in a bike hangar. Our cargo bike is currently parked in the living room, looking out enviously at the car spots out front. We have requested a new hangar that can house a cargo bike from cyclehoop/council. I'll see if I can dig up the link to request a bike hangar on your street and edit it in here later -- you can add in that you'd like one to accommodate a cargo bike in the notes. Ah - here is all the info in this tweet thread: Also - if you don't have space for a cargo bike but need to move things occasionally, the guys at PedalMe can carry anything for you - including fridges as well as doing house moves by giant cargo bikes and they are often cheaper than the man with the van enterprises.

Ah thanks - I see now that the quote is not from the FOI as it appears to be referenced in the graphic in the tweet. Thanks for clearing that up. The complexity I was speaking of was more re: the latter part of LL's comment -- "...Bus journey times were up to the end of March but congestion looks comparable to, or lower than last March. Would be interested to see what it's like now." And the data is interesting - I agree more data since March would be good to see. https://foi.tfl.gov.uk/FOI-0115-2122/Dulwich%20Village%20SCOOT%20Analysis%20-%2026th%20Mar.pdf

And here is a reply - seems a bit more complex, as everything on this topic is... "I found the FOI but can't find that quote anywhere. Bus journey times were up to the end of March but congestion looks comparable to, or lower than last March. Would be interested to see what it's like now:" https://foi.tfl.gov.uk/FOI-0115-2122/Dulwich%20Village%20SCOOT%20Analysis%20-%2026th%20Mar.pdf from:

That's really lovely - one of my favourite shops!

"Raenurn, SE22 at al - would you like all this traffic to sit in front of your homes? Would you then bo oh so philosophical about it? You are simply happy with sacrifising peoples' health (both physical and mental) in the name of a very dubious experiment - it is wrong." ab29 - I live very very close to one of the roads that supposedly has an increase in traffic. I also work on Lordship Lane. I have severe asthma. I am also arthritic. In the very beginning, there was traffic mayhem. It has subsided to a level that is very close to the level it was at before (at least on these two roads) with most of the congestion occurring around school run times as it always has. I have seen a real shift - with more people walking and cycling locally. I have also chatted with many local people who have changed their habits. If everyone eliminates just one car trip a day, it makes a real difference. I am not "philosophical". I have read the "gear change" report -- have a look here if you are not familiar -- (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/904146/gear-change-a-bold-vision-for-cycling-and-walking.pdf) and I have also attended a meeting at City Hall a few years ago led by Will Norman that was focused on inclusivity around this topic. I was there as I worked for a charity that served a large percentage of BAME people and also people on limited incomes. Others in attendance included Wheels for Wellbeing as well as groups that worked with the elderly. The presentation had some shocking statistics re: how we cannot go on as we have. I think a segregated cycle lane on East Dulwich Grove would be a real plus to helping everyone give a go at driving less. And, the LTN's have been instrumental at getting people to think and behave differently and consider roads as spaces for not just cars.