YellowHairedLady

@ Azul No you have not started a war, just some good open debate, which I for one have enjoyed being a part of. @ Trinity "But you are wrong, very wrong, to suggest that the security forces can be compared to these murdering b******s." And these would be the same security forces who are currently waging an illegal war in Iraq? In fact your own words give justification for making comparison "There was some collusion and certainly bad mistakes made by both the army and the police force" although funny how it is only a mistake if the Government does it. Personally, I think Major mistakes were made by all involved. Also, how does this collusion and mistakes fit with the idea that: "the aim of the security forces was first and foremost the protection of all civilians in Northern Ireland" Quite simply it doesn't. You cannot protect civilians by killing them or assisting other terrorist organisations in killing them. Your imaginative argument could even get you a career with Sinn F?in. "I lump all the terrorists together - IRA, UDA, PIRA, UFF - all murdering scum." You missed 2 British Military and the RUC. All of the aforementioned organisations are scum and always will be. Leopards dont change their spots e.g., Iraq!!!

?ireann

How did the priest find the altar boy in the long grass? Fantastic

@Mockney Piers My purpose in this chat has not been to support any terrorist organisation, I think they are all scum, simply to express that the blood splattered hands are on all sides. "Much of Irish history has been reinterpreted in the 19th and 20th centuries for political reasons of nationalism" Funny you should say that because that is exactly what we know to be true of the UK. Take for example the whitewash over Bloody Sunday, The Black and Tans, Collusion with loyalist paramilitaries and the fact that no British politician called for the loyalist paramilitaries to disarm, at least not to the same extent as they did the IRA. British telling of history largely ignores these issues along with the fact that you supported a Unionist Government that openly allowed discrimination against Catholics, where Catholics chances of getting a job or a house, for example, were greatly diminished in comparison to Protestant's. All this gets swept under the carpet over here. In fairness to Blair, he did apologise for the British reaction to the Irish Famine, which until then had also been ignored. "when actually nothing remotely resembling a genuine nationalist movement had actually existed prior to that time." Very clever wording, but I still think you will find the fighting against the plantations during the 1500's qualifies as a fight against oppression from a foreign power, and so can be called Nationalism. But hey, that is a matter of opinion. My opinion is that History about conflicts should be banned to as large an extent as possible, as it is very hard to teach it from a neutral perspective e.g., both Irish and UK History are biased towards their own people. @Jimbob "of over 3,500 persons killed, the republicans were responsible for almost 60%, loyalists 30% and the security forces 10%." Out of 3,500 persons killed that makes 3,500 too many. Also, given the high levels of collusion between British Army and Loyalist paramilitaries you could easily make it 60% / 40%. My point with the security forces was actually, why did agents of the Government (soldiers / police) who were supposed to be neutral, peacekeepers, kill so many people, and so many innocent people at that ( thought I am certain they were not all innocent). And why were the vast, vast, majority of them from one side. For example, I have lived in Ireland, England (still do), Australia and New Zealand. In each of these Countries / Nations, I have never walked down the street fearing that I may be shot by agents of the Government. "while the loyalists still hold onto their weapons" Why were they allowed to? Very strange! "i,ve no doubt that in due course moves will come about to try and make ireland a 32 county state and that will perhaps reignight the situation" Given the current death and birth rates, there is likely to be a United Ireland within the next generation or so. Perhaps, loyalist paramilitaries will react badly to this. "but for the time being my friends and family are enjoying for the greater majority of them a peace that they have never known before, let them have their moment." I have no intention of stopping them having their moment, I am anti-violence from all sides, and I would add that I hope your friends and family, and all the people of the North experience peace for the remainder of their lives. God knows they deserve to.

@ Hugenot The bigotry reference was just saying that I am not entitled to be a bigot. Not aimed at you. I am in agreement with you on the rest. @ ???? Who is painting the IRA as "blue eyed celtic freedom fighters"? I was simply stressing that there are at least 2 sides to every argument "Plus go and dig out just how many children the british army did kill during the Trobles, or indeed how many non-combatants" and compare that to the IRA's death toll..." Personally I think anyone being murdered, by any side, is one murder too many. I am in total agreement with Huguenot when he says "Regarding individuals who believe in the slaughter of innoent civilians to pursue a political agenda, I don't feel any different to the IRA than I do any other organisation, including national governments, be they British or otherwise." For that reason, I am also against the Iraq war. "You think Britain is naive?" Not Britain, but from my experience, and I live in Britain, many british people, though clearly not all, are poorly educated as to Britains role in the troubles. "we'd have happily given Ireland the north years ago and the blood bath that would have followed" I believe that you would have given it up, however, I disagree that there would have been a bloodbath. I believe that had they put the same effort in as for the Good Friday Agreement, then we could have had the current situation a lot earlier. I think the likes of Thatcher and Haughey were a major obstacle to this and I dont believe that it is a coincidence that their replacements, Major and Reynolds are the ones that got the ball rolling. At the end of the day, I think that you and I agree on far more that we disagree on. Surely, that is a good thing, and a clear sign that things are improving. Heres to a brighter future for all!

@Hugenot Do you really believe that the history between Ireland and England is that simple? If you do then you are more one-eyed than Gordon Brown. By all means you have the right to hate the IRA and to be extremely angry at them for the things they did within your country. "The attacks only targeted English towns, not Scots or Welsh. It was racial, and it was 'personal'." Racial? There are so many different races in England, and bombs are not selective as to who they kill, so which race were they against - the anglo-saxons, the Protestants, Catholics, Caribbean, African, Asian? How could you ensure that you only get one race? Besides, I think you will find that they killed as many of their own. Personal - who was this one person that the problem was with? Because if by personal you meant a Nation, then aren't most, if not all, wars personal. "The attack in Brighton in 1984 was aimed at destroying the democratically elected political leadership of our country." Yeah, when you attack another country the Government / Leadership are often a target, for example, how is Saddam doing these days? I think many Irish people would compare the attempt on Maggie and the crew, as equivalent to your country executing the 7 signatories of the Proclamation of Independence. That wasn't exactly a respectful way to treat a country's leaders. However, the most amazing thing about your post is that you completely ignore hundreds of years of history, just so you can maintain your blinkered view of Anglo-Irish History. Do you really think that your country was only in Ireland picking flowers? Check out how many innocent members of the public, the army killed during the troubles alone, and how many of them were children. And remember, this was the army of the Government. My point is not to say that one side is better than the other. It is simply that the one eyed view of history is quite annoying. The day England (and it was England at the time) took Ireland, it picked a fight, it got a fight and both sides have done many despicable things over the years. A murderer is a murderer regardless of his/her uniform. I have had someone from my town killed in the troubles, but it does not give me the right to one sided bigotry. I do agree with you on a couple of things though. 1 The English are entitled to an opinion, just keep it fair. 2 I shall put this a little more bluntly than you, The Northern Irish are taking Britain for a ride!