fuzzyboots

Hi Belle, I'm one of the mums who bought a franchise (Sing and Sign!) after the birth of my second baby. My oldest is much older than my younger two (19 (nearly 20!), 6 1/2 and 3 1/2. There was no point in me going back to work after the birth of the second baby, because the nursery fees, plus travel and lunch, etc, would have meant I'd have been working full time (for a charity, so the hours can be quite strange), having to travel away overnight from time to time, rushing back to pick up my daughter from a nursery or having to use a nursery near the office (which is extremely impractical when your office is in Chiswick - commuting with babies is NO FUN at all). I'd have ended up with about ?200 a month to live off. So, having fallen completely in love with my Sing and Sign classes in Sutton and wanting to rekindle my latent musical leanings (I'm a music graduate), I bought the franchise with a loan from my mother. I did it really because of my passion for babysigning after the experience of doing it with my daughter, but the timing was perfect for me and five years later I've gone from running two classes a week to taking on an excellent businss partner, running 31 classes a week and with a team of five girls working for us. I should say, if you're thinking of making a living wage from this kind of business, it ain't really gonna happen! You absolutely have to do it because you are passionate about it/believe in what you're doing. And the behind the scenes admin is ENORMOUS! A fairy godmother who could wave a "Admin/Accounts" wand is just what we need! HTH! Trish/Fuzzyboots

Sorry - posted in the wrong place. What a dum dum!

I realise that rules of this sort exist to protect the common good, but I find it so frustrating when the local entrepreneurs of this world are denied even the most simple opportunity to provide a service that it's clear would be welcomed by the local community. Good luck littlecoffeevan. I'm rooting for you!

And do you think the bar might attract bisexual breeders..?!;-) Can't wait (since I am one of them)

I've never worked in a charity shop - and this is not an excuse for surliness - but so far as I'm aware the people who work in St Christopher's shop are all volunteers. Shoot me down in flames if I'm wrong, of course. But I know for sure that one of the ladies is definitely a volunteer and I also know for sure that she could do with actually earning some money for her volunteering, but she is strongly motivated to give her time for free and that's what she does. Equally, however, I must say that being a volunteer is no justification for being crap/surly/inefficient. But would you do it for free?! Assuming you had the time, which I appreciate many of us do not. Fuzzyboots

Moos, (whoever you may be!) that's very kind of you! Thanks for the feedback. That's exactly how we'd hope you'd feel about your experience with us.:)) Trish/Fuzzyboots

hi Darcy Hopping in on this question, because my daughter SO loves her ballet classes. I wholeheartedly recommend Fiona Foster to you. She teaches on Mon and Weds afternoons at Gowlett Road, and possibly elsewhere nearby on other days. Her numbers are 07771 691031 and 01689 858994. She's absolutely delightful and very gentle and understanding with the little ones. They utterly adore her. New term starts 15th September I believe. ?5 for 30 mins. HTH, Trish

I agree Espelli. A well considered, informed comment. Trish/Fuzzboots.

Yeah, soft play is BRILLIANT, although slightly hazardous during school hols when there are loads of much bigger kids there. My boy (2.5) was knocked flying off the big yellow slide last week by an enthusiastic "big boy" :( Ha ha Ganapati - I like your "too focused on the kids" observation. Got it in one. I have to say there have been many occasions in my classes when I've had to encourage parents to relax ad enjoy themselves and that little Johnny or Jane will start signing when s/he's good and ready. I suspect that if lots of us lived much nearer our parents/families then this performance anxiety (about their parenting skills and their child's development) would not be so pervasive. I have a feeling it's probably a particular issue in London where there is such a large no of incomers. And do you know, at home, although I really enjoy my children's company and playing with them, I am a firm fan of benign neglect and letting them get on with things! It makes me sad to see these children who are so dependent on being entertained all the time. Completely stifling for their learning about themselves, etc. I suspect some of them would be better off spending at least some time in a nursery or pre-school, so that they actually do have to stand on their own two feet a bit. Surely that's a parent's job - to prepare their children for independence? Ironically, that starts at their mothers' knees.... Trish/Fuzzyboots

Hi Ganapati I thinki you raise two very fair point. 45 mins is a long time for under 3's (and arguably quite a lot of over 3's!). In my case, with Sing and Sign, our classes have asest structure each week which includes some "down" time, sero mummies and babies can relax and mingle and chatter (quite a lot...). There is no doubt that, particularly for younger babies, the classes are very much about the parents/carers meeting other people in the same boat, establishing new friendships, sharing a moan, etc. And there's nothing wrong with that. My daughter goes to ballet and it's clear that some of them are better concentraters than others. Many of the children I've observed pick up the cues/behaviour from their parents too. If thee adult is interested in the proceedings, then the child is more likely to pay attention too. If however, the parent spends the entire time during the class fiddling with a mobile phone, or nattering to his/her neighbour, then the child tends not to make the most of the teaching opportunity, either. At the risk of sounding school-marmish, you get out what you put in. If the parents and teacher display commitment, enjoyment and interest then the kids will pick this up and make the most of the opportunity. I too have been a mum wondering how on earth I was going to get any adult conversation at all, especially when my DH was working incredibly long hours. There are plenty of formal and informal toddler groups, cafes, libraries, parks, etc in the vicinity and surely most mums will eventually venture out to start meeting new people? You don't have to have a huge budget available to achieve this, thankfully. Trish/fuzzyboots

Went to Si Mangia for the first time a couple of days ago and LOVED it. Good value, good food, (child) friendly service. Also went to Locale on EAst Dulwich Road for lunch. We didn't eat off the set menu (?10 per head for two courses, plus drinks) so it ended up costing nearly ?50, inc 12.5% service charge! But that did include four exorbitantly priced (but jolly tasty) lattes (?11.80!!!!!!!!!!!) The waiter was absolutely gorgeous and hilarious, too. You gotta go just to meet him. I think his name is Giggi. I love Springers, too. Freshly cooked food clearly provided by a food enthusiast. It's lovely to meet the proprietor/chef who is obviously passionate about what he provides and also genuinely concerned that customers are satisfied. The service is good there, too. The staff have always seemed very knowledgeable (I'm not very knowledgeable) about the wines, etc. Trish/fuzzyboots

Oh gosh! This all sounds really like parents suspect they're being exploited and not getting any value for money and fun/entertainment/lasting stimulation for either themselves or their children. That's really sad.:'( I declare here and now that I am Trish Cummings, who runs Sing and Sign classes in Southwark, Greenwich and Lewisham with my business partner, Rebecca Clow and our team of teachers (who are all local mummies who've attended our classes and subsequently we've trained them to teach for us). I'll respond first as a mummy and then as one of the baby classes providers. 1) As a mummy for the second time round in 2003 and a latent musician (my eldest has just got into Manchester Uni to read French and German YAY:)-D) I was very keen to find an enjoyable music/singing based class for my daughter, now nearly 6 years old. We signed up to a local provider (whom I shall not name)and duly went along to our classes. I have to say, I was rather staggered (and miffed) at being asked to pay a "one off (compulsory) membership fee" as I frankly couldn't see what benefit I'd derive from it. The cost then, in 2003, worked out at ?5 for a half an hour class and required full payment in advance for the term, plus of course this "fee". Well, I have to say, I "stuck it out" for one term and then decided (through familiarity and lack of any better ideas) to sign up for a second term. I quickly learnt that the quality of the class depends not only on the subject matter (which was good, by the way) but the teacher too. We had two changes of teacher, i.e. 3 teachers in the 3 terms - for legimate reasons - and it was obvious that the "best" one was the one we'd had first of all. The subequent teachers very much gave the impression of doing the job whilst they were waiting for their big break as singers/actors. They didn't bother to learn the children's names, the children weren't allowed to do anything other than sit on their parent's/carer's lap and we were actually turfed out after 25 mins in order for the room to be clear for the next class to start on time. I wasn't impressed and often found myself attending out of a sense of wanting value for money/duty to keep the weekly routine going for my daughter. I frequently found myself questioning why I was paying ?5 a week to bang a tambourine for half an hour, when I could, as other posters have pointed out, have done that rather more easily and cheaply at home. During my second term with these classes, I also signed up for baby signing classes with Sing and Sign, in Sutton, because that was the nearest such class to me and I was very interested in establishing effective, calm, stress free, unfrustrated communication with my daughter after the horrendous experience I had with my older son :-$ Honestly, there was no comparison between the two classes. I wouldn't have missed my (hour's drive against the rush hour traffic) Sing and Sign class for the world, whereas if something cropped up on the day of the other class, I would be prepared to miss it. I actually found the baby signing classes incredibly stimulating for the whole week between classes as I had something to get my teeth into with my daughter and what's more, our teacher (now emigrated to Australia sadly) knew every baby and every parent's name, and didn't kick us out at the end of the class but lingered and took a genuine interest in us. The music and baby participation/interaction in the class was brilliant, too. And the class was 45 mins, but was so relaxed that we were always there for an hour. I was so completely sold on the benefits, rewards and pleasures of baby signing and the enjoyable nature of the classes that I bought the local franchise for Sing and Sign as soon as I could bear to put my daughter with a childminder. That was four and a half years ago and I'm loving every minute of it still. In fact, before the beginning of every term, I can't sleep with excitement (how sad is that?!) I completely empathise and understand the feeling of being ripped off as a parent. There's a lot of unspoken peer pressure out there, and the concomitant fear that if one doesn't participate in a particular activity then one/one's baby is somehow missing out/letting down one's child. And now, with my Sing and Sign hat on! 2) The first thing I'd like to say is that we (all the private sector baby/toddler activity) providers operate in an open market. Parents vote with their feet and word of mouth recommendation (or otherwise!) is the greatest fuel that brings new famillies to our doors. Of course, there's always a novelty factor when new classes offering new activities start up, but that customer base will soon fade if you don't deliver what you say you will. The competition is pretty fierce in fact. Sing and Sign in Southwark, Greenwich and Lewisham, charges ?6.50 per class, for an 11 week term, working out at ?71.50 for the term and yes, we do ask people to book in advance for the whole term. There is a membership OPTION (?15) but it really is an option. In fact, I usually forget to mention it to our families (::o) and often get comments on our feedback forms that they didn't know membership was available (oops!) The overheads in London are quite high... Our average room hire, PER HOUR, is ?18, which doesn't sound like much when you are sitting in a full class (our max is 12, but usually 11 babies and twins/multiples only pay for one baby but take up a space per baby) and you work out the maths. However, there are also: teacher wages and other costs, training costs, franchise fees, deposits for some venues, CRB/polic checking, public liability insurance, employers liability insurance, accountants fees, tax (TAX!), kits, clothes, class materials, folders for handouts, advertising, promotional activities and materials (posters, post cards, balloons, free taster sessions) etc, etc, etc, etc, to cover as well. And of course, the admin, whew! I daren't actually go too closely into what I actually earn (for 33 wks per year of actual income) per hour, because the admin happens every day, 52 weeks per year, one way or the other. And by the way (slightly sniffily) this is my only income and I don't get any money from my husband for housekeeping (or anything else, come to that). The only other money I get is Child Benefit.. thank god! If I didn't truly, truly love delivering our classes (and I believe with our Sing and Sign classes, we are pretty damn good at what we do, because we're all so passionate about it and that comes across to parents and babies alike) then it really wouldn't be worth the money for all the effort and cost involved. Once I add in my own childcare costs to this, it starts to look like a startlingly bad idea if you actually want a get even modestly rich quick for very little effort, employed (rather than self employed), NI and PAYE taken care of, job security, holiday pay, sick pay, maternity pay, pension contribution kind of job. This is not that job, believe me! But I absolutely love doing it and it is the most rewarding, fulfilling and gratifying occupation I've ever had. It is thrilling to see "our" families coming back with second and third babies, even though they remember most of the signs from the first time round, just because they've had such a jolly, memorable and stimulating time and made such good friends from attending our classes. It is moving and a huge privilege to see babies learning to sign with their parents/carers, to have them crawl up to your lap every week for a cuddle, to watch them developing every week - gaining confidence in the class situation, trying out new things, choosing their own instruments, learning to share, to tidy up, to acutely observe the adults in their company (body language, facial expression, tone of voice, other behaviour) and to simply have fun. We really get to know our babies and their adults and if you were to speak to my oldest graduates, they would tell you that I can't sing for some of their last ever class because I'm crying at the thought of "losing" them. I can, of course, only speak for the classes that we deliver. But we've built up from 2 classes per week to 25 per week, which I hope indicates that we're getting something right for our customers. If we weren't, then our customers would fall away - there is, after all, plenty of competition for parents' purses out there. We are interested to see what happens with the current economic doom and gloom. So far, for the September term, we've not noticed any drop in enrolments or renewals. For us, the reasons most people leave are: their babies are too old and need to "graduate", they're moving out of the area, they're going back to work. Maybe next year our numbers will be hit as larger utility bills, etc start to bite harder. I've honestly NEVER had anyone ask for their money back because they hated the classes/found it wasn't for them (that's why we do free tasters, so people know what they're signing up for). We do our best to be flexible about people missing classes because of illness/holiday etc, but once the place in class is allocated to them, we can't give it to someone else, and in Sing and Sign's case, we are limited by head office (and for our/our customers' sanity's sake!) to an asbolute maximum of 12 babies per class. Quite often we run classes with fewer than this (our minimum number is 6). This means that these class may just about wash their face financially, or not. This is out of loyalty to the families who have chosen our classes and if we were a big corporation, our FD would instantly cancel all of these classes. Sorry - I've banged on quite a bit haven't I? But I do hope it's clarified what it's like to be on the providers' side of the fence. I have to say I do get really frustrated when certain types of mummy contact me and can only attend one particular time of day, on one particular day of the week, because they've "got some other class/activity" booked for every other time. As a mum, I despair! Are these parents frightened of actually spending time with their babies?! Do they believe that by attending every class under the sun their children will somehow benefit? I know of plenty of working mums who would jump at the chance to spend a lazy afternoon, PLAYING WITH THEIR CHILDREN, or just chilling or going for a walk in the local park. It does make me wonder sometimes. What children want MOST OF ALL is to spend quality time with their significant adults. You don't have to spend money all the time to be a good parent. But I hope that what we offer is an incredibly valuable, stimulating and rewarding experience at our classes and that it is actually well worth the money we charge. I do hope however, that, when parents sign up for any of the locally provided classes, that they genuinely feel they do receive value for money and that if they don't feel like that, that they feel able to raise this with the company concerned. We can't improve if we don't know how our customers feel. It's lovely to receive the compliments and heartfelt thanks that we do receive from our parents, but it's just as, if not more, valuable and informative to know when things aren't right, so that we can address them. (It's only happened twice so far). I'd be happy to continue this at even more length (!) but I guess most readers will be rolling their eyes by now, if they've stayed reading this far ;-) Anyone got strong feelings about what I've said? I'd be delighted to engage with you! Trish Cummings Sing and Sign in Southwark, Greenwich and Lewisham