root

How did this go from arsenic levels in rice to arsenic in chicken feed in the US to not feeling right about the same organisations manufacturing both medicinals and other chemical products. I am increasingly convinced that I am spotting a niche market in East Dulwich for tin foil hats.

Yuuna Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I posted earlier accidentally and this forum > doesn't allow for a delete button... It is unfair > to make parents feel bad by claiming not > vaccinating their children means they put other > children at risk. How so? If the other children Harsh? Maybe. Unfair? No. > are all vaccinated for all known diseases, what's > the problem? They'll be protected, won't they? Please go and educate yourself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity > That is all just propaganda with little to no > evidence to back it up. It is also undermined by > disease outbreaks in vaccinated populations whose > victims were all vaccinated. Well that makes no > sense to me. Shame on people for scaremongering > and branding others selfish. I and others who have > not allowed their children to be vaccinated, > am/are not responsible for the measles outbreaks > in developed countries; they're only occurring in > highly vaccinated areas. I'm not a bad parent for > realising this. As someone already posted: http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/09/13/2617061/measles-outbreak-vaccine-beliefs/ http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-antivaccination-movement-20140120,0,5576371.story#axzz2r8HfEMuf Both above pages cite various sources if you drill down. Anyway I'm out of here.

hellosailor Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Root, I'm beginning to think you might be a > troll... Thanks. For suggesting that you question your GP when he suggests something that raises alarm bells? Not a troll ... just heavily Internet connected and naturally gifted at switching very quickly between issues without losing focus on main task, which is not this thread :-) > > Firstly I fail to see how my GP was trying to > swindle me out of money? In fact it's my > understanding that GPs get paid per jab so she was > in fact 'swindling' herself out of money by > recommending we have separate jabs (and therefore > go privately). Did you take those individual jabs at the GP surgery? > > Secondly, I'm confused, you think a nurse should > be struck off for a.) not vaccinating her children > or b.) admitting to me that she has not rather > than lying. b) for using her position to influence your decisions > > You're quite the charmer. you're welcome

hellosailor Wrote: > following > > links makes some good reading: > > No, they did not suggest it was likely that it was > a particular ingredient. Yes, my NHS GP did > recommend we do separate jabs in the future if we > could afford it, the reason being a multi jab was > apparently more likely to cause an adverse > reaction. The other option we were offered was to > go ahead with the MMR and have it administered in > hospital, so my daughter could spend the day on a > ward in hospital to monitor her, so they could > treat her immediately if the same thing happened > again. Out of interest would you have done this? > > > That is double messed up. The first thing I do whenever a GP recommends anything is check is go to the NHS website and read up on what the GP said. If there is anything that raises any alarm bells I would go back to the GP and ask him to justify his advice. What was it based on? Can he cite any research studies? Is it from personal experience? Research studies usually list any associations or interests. What were this GP's? Was he acting impartially and objectively? In this case the NHS website clearly states that on the NHS individual vaccines are not available and cites some reasons. http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/vaccinations/Pages/mmr-vaccine.aspx If put in your position multiple alarm bells would have gone off. For starters the decision put in your hands is very emotionally charged. He basically told you to either pay money or leave your daughter in the hospital in case she reacts badly. No parent would bear leave his daughter in hospital in case she has a bad reaction when the problem can be made to go away by throwing some money at it. I really suggest going back to this GP and ask him to substantiate his advice. If he just made it up to try to swindle you out of some money he could have potentially exposed your daughter to even higher risks!!! > > > > That is completely messed up. Was this on the > > NHS? > > Is it messed up? Should she have lied to me then? > She gave me her honest opinion, presumably based > on being a nurse at a GP practise who spent her > days vaccinating children, an opinion, with > respect, that is of more interest to me than that > of a computer engineer. Yes she was NHS. And that's why it is triple messed up. She was in a position of expert authority and because of that position you gave more weight to that of a computer engineer. What does this nurse know that over-rides the guidelines of the medical body and the established gold practices? Has her judgement been clouded by some incident that is not representative? Did she add 1 and 1 together and came up with 10? That is one of the reasons research studies are carried out and the numbers crunched. To get rid of the gut feelings and links and causality established. Frankly? You should have filed a complaint and she should be struck off.

Yuuna Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > I will acknowledge that this thread has turned > more into a discussion about vaccinations in > general as opposed to a MMR and autism link > thread. I think that there is enough compelling > evidence, worldwide that there is a link, however > big or small, .... No Yuuna, that is what you're not getting. There is *no* link!!

hellosailor Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Sorry to hear about your daughter. Who advised > > you on seeking separate jabs and do you recall > the > > explanation given? > > The GP we saw as a follow up advised us to do > separate jabs for MMR, I don't remember her exact > explanation but it was to do with the chances of > bad reactions being greater with multi jabs than > single jabs apparently. Her son had also been > hospitalised after the MMR so she knew first hand > how scary a bad reaction could be. That is weird. It's the first time I've heard of such a recommencation. I would have imagined that if there had been a specific ingredient to which your daughter may have reacted badly that the GP would have checked thoroughly against the other shots too. I tried to see what the NHS had to say but it seems very close to nothing. The following links makes some good reading: http://www.babycentre.co.uk/x554800/should-i-give-my-baby-the-mmr-or-have-the-vaccinations-done-separately (Incidentally I am an computer engineer with a background and interest in science not a clinician) > The nurse at the surgery who I spoke to afterwards > said she didn't feel right about advising me what > to do about vaccinations in the future as she > didn't have either of her children vaccinated due > to the risks?not very reassuring from the very > person administering the jabs.. That is completely messed up. Was this on the NHS? My experience with the NHS has been a postcode lottery. When I lived in Newham I had a very bad breakdown in health and all the GP surgery did was screw me over until they eventually struck me off their register when I threatened to sue them after a succession of very big mess ups that could have had very dire consequences (for me). They messed up test results giving me all clear when in fact they were not, and even left front desk idiots to phone me to tell me that other results were all clear and that I do not need to come to the practice (because an X-ray showed no broken bones which is pretty much to be expected when all the damage is in soft tissue). Then I moved to Tower Hamlets and registered with a new GP. What a difference!! Over a period of two years and approximately an average of 10 GP/Hospital/Physio/etc a month I had my health back under control.

hellosailor Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > StraferJack Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > that is an option but why would you take it? > > > > What is it about the MMR jab that would make > you > > consider spending hard cash? > > Forgot to answer your question SJ, My daughter had > a serious reaction to one of the infant jabs and > it was very scary, it was deemed more likely to > have happened because it had been a mutlti jab, so > we didn't want to take the chance of the same > thing happening again. hence went for separate > jabs next time. Seems I was actually wrong and there's only a small elevated risk: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/vaccines/mmrv/studyfeature.html Sorry to hear about your daughter. Who advised you on seeking separate jabs and do you recall the explanation given?

hellosailor Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > There is a middle ground too, tho it's expensive > unfortunately and therefore I understand not a > choice everyone could make, but if you want your > child vaccinated but don't want the MMR, you can > pay privately for separate jabs, which is what we > did. We did not want the MMR (nothing to do with > Wakefield, I have never read his claims even) but > we did want her vaccinated. Will do the same for > our second when the time comes. Not cheap but > another option out there should people wish to > take it. The overwhelming majority of those who opposed the MMR jab are plan anti-vaxxers so no vaccination protocol would have been acceptable to them. hellosailor, I am a bit perplexed though. What prompted you to chose separate shots instead of the combined MMR? There is an inherent risk to any shot. So the idea is to provide the most benefits to the individual, society at large, all at the minimum risk to the individual. That would include chances of things going wrong (such as seizures), cost (less visits to practice), missed shots, etc. Not that long ago there was a proposal to merge MMR with Varicella but that was dropped because the risks of things going wrong with MMRV were considered unaceptable compared to MMR.

BeccaL Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Also astounded that people are debating this - > it's so selfish from a population/community health > perspective not to vaccinate your children, in my > opinion. However, just wanted to point out that > "Dr" Tim O?Shea (mentioned above) is NOT an actual > doctor, he's a doctor of chiropractic in the US, > which means he has no medical qualifications at > all. You should take that into account when > reading his website... That is hilarious!!!! I clicked on the site and the first thing that caught my eye was a link to 'supplements', totally unproven for any efficacy against anything but very bold claims: http://www.immunitionltd.com/products.html#Cardiovascular What Expel. Why Safe, gentle and effective for all ages and colon conditions. Once the colon is cleansed, get ready for a whole new lifestyle What Oral Chelation Why Cleansing arteries, control high blood pressure, cholesterol levels, fatigue, memory loss, mercury/aluminum detox, anti-aging, autism And finally ... you can order all the woo (the above 2 and 5 other bottles of crazy) for just $365.00 for a month's supply for 1 person!!!

hellosailor Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > StraferJack Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > seems odd that someone who is saying children > > should be vaccinated is accused of being Daily > > Mail > > > > It was the Mail that did so much to spread that > > anti Vaccine message! > > it is root's assertion that people who choose not > to vaccinate should not be allowed to have > children that put me in mind of The Mail, oh and > his casual use of the word 'retarded'. Real nice. Never said I'm a pleasant person. I do have a strong social conscience though and recognise facts when I see them and realise the importance of vaccinating my kids and the avoidable risks I am exposing others in not doing so.

hpsaucey Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Lots of emotive language here as this topic always > generates. Yes lots of studies have debunked > concerns. But then again, people used to use > asbestos because it was thought to be safe and > used to put their children under UV lamps for its > 'health-giving benefits'. > > Times change, science changes and what we know and > understand changes - although people often have > short memories - so I don't personally think its > as black and white as many suggest and am sorry > the issue sometimes brings out dismissive > language. > > HP And after the woo, the hysteria, and the conspiracies come the deepities. Science doesn't change. Our understanding of science improves, and whereas in the Victorian age every man and his dog could come up with a concoction they call an elixir nowadays we have research laboratories, overseeing health services, and independent teams who shred other people's work so that (while it's not perfect) what makes sense gets adopted, improved on, and so forth. It is not perfect. There are financial iterests, lobbying, research bias, but it's our job to make it better not turn the clocks back to 1685. Incidentally the MMR vaccine has been around since the late 60s / early 70s, so we have quite a lot of data about it. And yes, harsh words are in order. Not just out of frustration in the face of wilful stupidity, but out of the wreckless endangerment of putting other people's health, including the lives of other people's children at risk. That is the simple bottom line. I repeat, in case you missed it. The unvaccinated population are not just increasing their risk of disease, but above all, they are increasing the risk of exposure to those whose immunity is compromised.

Yuuna Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Yes, I should add my decision is not related to > Wakefield either. I think people should stop > citing him as if he is the only one to question > the safety of vaccinations; he isn't. I personally > know doctors who do not vaccinate their children > and have noticed the children they see most often > were vaccinated. > > TE44, you might be interested to read this article > about swine flu: > http://www.thedoctorwithin.com/swine/swine-flu/ > there was said to be mercury in the vaccination. Not sure if said vaccine contained thiomersal which was routinely used as an (if I recall correctly) antifungal. In the doses used it serves its purpose as an antifungal for the preparation but won't cause any harm to a human being. But as science never stops and is always improving, and also in parto to the bad press, thiomersal has been replaced in most infant vaccines. > Apparently swine flu was just a variant of > 'regular' flu. My niece was actually vaccinated > for this and went on to get flu for the first time > in her life. She was ill for weeks and also got > tonsillitis. Both her and my sister belive it was > due to the vaccination. My sister was upset that A few fallacies here. You are looking at a single case, hardly a sample size to draw any conclusion and you are also making a very big assumption that if something happened 'after' something then it must be 'because'. > her daughter was encouraged to have this by a > nurse when told of her daughter's blood enzyme > deficiency (she has a hereditary disorder that > does not normally affect her and doctors have said > her immune system is strong). > > It's also telling that the Vaccine Damage Payment > of up to ?120,000 could affect you receiving > benefits such as working tax credit, child tax > credit and income support. That's nice of the > government, isn't it? Let's deter people from > claiming compensation for being injured by their > sanctioned drugs by threatening to take away their > benefits. Well, they are drugs, so I suppose there > was always a risk, wasn't there? And there go the conspiracy theories ...

Yuuna Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I urge people to read this article on Mercola.com > and consider what it means. > http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive > /2001/08/18/vaccine-myths.aspx > Knew it was only a question of time that if it's not Mike Adams of NaturalNews.com it had to be Mercola. Incidentally both web sites made it to Skeptoid's 2011 top 10 list of anti science websites which is exactly what this stupidity you're propogating is. You're not being wise, you're not being open minded or educated. You are just being as retarded as those who believe the earth is 6000 years old, that evolution is only a theory and that the lunar landings were staged.

TE44 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Drugs companys have been fined time and time again > over falsifying > safety, by witholding results from trials where > problems have been found.cant put > anything up now but I do think people should be > allowed to mak.e a choice Yes, unfortunately in being naughty the Pharma industry has caused lots of hysteria amongst the scientific illiterati and the new age chichi who read the likes of naturalnews. Yes, unfortunately on issues that should be trivial, such as the MMR people have a choice and some chose the do the wrong thing. If you ask me, chosing not to vaccinate your kids is criminal. Not towards your kids, but as I mentioned earlier towards those other kids and members of the public who for health reasons have to rely on the herd immunity to lesson their chances of encountering and being struck down by the disease. Yes, not vaccinating kids is one of the ultimate forms of ignorant selfishness.

TE44 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > http://m.naturalnews.com/news/036298_Merck_scienti > sts_False_Claims_Act.html > > notice link i added above cannot be acceessed, > privacy thing I dont know? > Heres another one. Scientist who worked for merk > accusing company of falsefying > records on safety and efficciency. Big Pharma is very shady and has a lot to answer for but the solution is to clean up Pharma not stick our heads in the sands of science denial and turn to quackery, of which naturalnews.com is greatest fountain. If you can spare a few minutes to a voice of reason check Ben Goldacre's talks on the subject: Back to your assertion. As far as I could read the two researchers accused Merk of falsifying data on the levels of efficacy data to gain an unfair advantage over competition but did not put into question the science behind the vaccines, the general efficacy or the safety. What has really cracked me up however is that naturalnews.com link. I have attached a screenshot of what came up when I clicked. Safe for work but not one's sanity. In addition to a biased version of the events about which the article revolved it included: * No less than 3 adverts for colloidal silver * An advert for the health ranger's own cupping therapy set (Yes, that's Mike Adams the idiot behind Natural News himself) * An advert for ther B17 anti cancer rubbish (can't believe this is still going on) * Usual detox bla bla * More rubbish * and last but not least, an advert for Oxy-Power!!! Oxy-Power is not a bleach to clean your carpets, or remove stains from you clothes without losing all the colour. It claims to be a "powerful colon cleansing product that actively releases small amounts of cleansing oxygen in your large intestine".

hellosailor Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > root Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > > > Or better still, if you don't want to vaccinate > > your children then do not have children in the > > first place as it is the lives of others and > > society at large you are putting at risk when > you > > don't. > > You're nor getting it root. It's the parents > choice. Who are you to say that people who do not > vaccinate their children should not have children. > You sound like the Daily Mail, in fact I've never > read a post by you that didn't sound like The > Daily Mail. Oh I do get it. As a parent you have rights and responsibilities, and if there ere no underlying medical reasonns your kinds should be vaccinated, not just for their own sake but for the sake of those feebler in society who cannot adequately protect themselves from certain diseases and their best chances not to have to face a disease is herd immunity, that is when sufficient numbers of the population are vaccinated making it harder for the unprotected individual to meet the disease. So yes, I stand by my statement, if you are selfish enough not to vaccinate your kids, then it would be better for the rest of us if you sinply don't have any. Not even going to bother bringing up the daily mail comment.

> http://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/overview.html > > There, in black and white, is the risk of not > having the vaccine. If you think that the MMR is > more dangerous than measles, then it is your call. > You don't have to vaccinate your child. Or better still, if you don't want to vaccinate your children then do not have children in the first place as it is the lives of others and society at large you are putting at risk when you don't.

etta166 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-a > ntivaccination-movement-20140120,0,5576371.story#a > xzz2r8HfEMuf > > This LA times article should also help you to > understand the risk you take by not vaccinating. > The risks are not just for your children, but for > the population at large. Thanks for sharing that article. You may enjoy listening to Michael Specter's talk "The dangers of science denial":

Chelski37 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Just to inform you all that next to the > conservative club in ed the large building next > door which was a lovely play school is now taken > over by around 20 Romanians squatting , what's > going on in ed I ask myself . The Romanians are our misfortune. We need to start rounding them up and make them wear a Blue/Yellow/Red badge that reads Roma so we can tell them apart from a mile away. [ yes, it's a sarcastic drawing of parallels in the Light of growing xenophobia ]

malwinka11 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Just read in an article about MMR jabs and > autism.... > I have two daughters who are 14 months and 3 years > who are soon due for this jab > > Was wondering whats yr opinion - is there a link > between MMR a Autism? It is not a matter of opinion but one of fact. Any link between MMR vaccine and autism has been discredited. The wikipedia article provides a good summary and links to the relevant sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine_controversy