Rico

Then Chav you really are for a massive redistribution of wealth - not really for equality based on gender, orientation, race, etc. For example, I doubt you'd have much support for the Black Gay Lawyers group - where most earn six figures or more. Or Thatcher as a woman because her values weren't your own. I disagree with creating a socialists, state-run Government based on redistributing wealth by robbing the rich to subsidise the poor. It would end in tears. But I understand we differ.

Thatcher is interesting, eh? She achieved a lot by becoming our first woman Prime Minister - long before Hillary took a chance. And she took some tough decisions - some right, but difficult. She didn't handle it in the best way, even if they were sound decisions. But she believed in what she did and many women felt betrayed because she didn't agree with their agenda (suggesting being female is a non-issue, which is right). I recently read about a gay/lesbian journalists association in the US. It has not been allowed to join a coalition of similar associations for black, hispanic and asian journalists. They were doing the very thing they accused 'the man' of doing and not being inclusive. Truth is, once we equalise all people regardless of these traits, we'll see that ideologies cut across them and find new reasons to fight. Perhaps that's CWALD's point. They aren't 'imidating the master' as much as they may actually share the ideology. I'd also add that in the corporate world today, being gay, black, female, etc. is becoming a leg up instead of an obstacle. That's good. And 'the master' is becoming quite a diverse prototype.

The interesting bit is how racial and religious 'minorieties' (I use 'quotes' because some are actually majorities in pure number terms) are usually the loudest to complain about mistreatment (fair) and the worst homophobes. While many attack James for suggesting one may be worse, and I don't think he's said that, truth is what makes homophobia more challenging is you get no solidarity from many other oppressed groups. It's hard to be gay. It's hard to be black. Try being black and gay. Poor souls.

This is hysterical. Muffintop, when you get in today off the black helicopter, please ignore the text below. Troll level six abt codeword: bluejay for level 5 on Friday. Over. p.s. we never met

Good news. For those who find it horrilble and hugely significant, I'm sure you were there last night to speak. Typical that consultation goes on for years and once completed, hords come out on chat boards to talk about how horrible it was and no one was asked. We consult too long in this country. That's why things never get done or take years.

I don't like the idea of police carrying guns. But if I were a cop in these parts, I would be quite frightened going into estates late at night to handle a disturbance armed only with a stick. I don't know what the right answer is really.

Me too. Not fearing crime (it exists but is actually lower) not fearing terrorism (it exists but we don't have to destroy countries) and not fearing global climate change doom (it exists, we need to address it, but fear is not the way forward).

Interesting question. What does that make Barack Obama? America's first mixed race Presidential nominee? Seriously. Interesting. And it makes becoming 'colourless' far more easier, as well as the right thing to do.

I'm pleased they are using the name Camberwell, which is actually far more beautiful a name than any other in the area. I thought they may ditch it and try 'the grove'. This will do more for Camberwell than anything else in the past decade (or more).

New Labour was great for a while. Now they are falling apart brought on my a number of issues. So people are leaning back to 'New Conservatives' in hopes of regaining middle ground common sense. Just as the far right and the middle tore apart the Conservatives, it's now the far left and the middle tearing apart Labour. I think we need to address climate change and reform some financial controls, but suggesting we need to do what Chav says is simply extreme and has absolutely no evidence in history or present day of working. If New Labour was true to its 1997 and early years, I think most of us would be happy. Now we're hoping Conservatives learned their lessons of giving in to their extreme wing and can regain the middle ground.

Perhaps I'm a troll in need of 12 steps so I'm unaware. I think the Daily Mail approach is every bit as polarising as Chav's. But she is hailed as the way forward and anyone thinking perhaps we need a more centrist approach is hailed as a Daily Mail troll. I'm part of the overwhelming majority of people who would vote Conservative tomororow. Not because I'm a conservative (I voted Labour for some time now) but because we need to pull outselves back to the centre. There are many of us. And we get more dissillusioned when people like you on both extremes dismiss dialogue with anyone not willing to buy 100% extremist views. The Troll

I'm finding agreement with Tony. As I said elsewhere, and was efficiently and summarily dismissed as a 'Daily Mail troll', it seems common sense has dissappeared and any suggestion that hard left views aren't fully embraced results in insults of being intolerant and ignorant. Can one not, for example, be against ignorance, racism, sexism and homophobia but still suggest some common sense on immigration issues and recognise certain communities have bigger issues with crime to be tackled? We're not talking BNP or for that matter Lib Dems, but the centre ground for common sense and the ability to find solutions somewhere in the middle that move us forward?

Predictable. So just to be clear, Moo and all others agree with Chav's approach? Mass re-distribution of wealth, Gov't control of the entire financial services sector, etc.? Really? Of course I understand climate change. Think it's important. Not Daily Mail reader. But Do you all, like Moos, agree with Chav to the extent we have to radically overhaul Government to deal with it? Wow. I'm stunned.

Thought so. Sorry folks, am I the only middle of the road, common sense person sick of extremists on both sides? The same fear used to convince us to go after terrorists is the same fear used by the other side regarding the 'devestation of the planet'. Sick of extremes. Both sides of the spectrum. Common sense. Does it exist?

Just put your cards on the table and we'll all be better informed. Anyone of wealth is reponsible for all the evils, while the poor are all victims, even if they are anti-social (it's not their fault). You are no doubt a pure socialists? Believe all should be paid equally and somehow magically that would create a perfect world? Don't be ashamed. Just put your cards on the table.

See I'll go a long way in agreeing there are things we can't control and have to provide help with. My hunch is you'll go no way in saying there's a strong need for people to take more personal responsibility.

And muffin, my point was gay pride, like the women's movement, the black movement, etc. was all about people who are born a certain way saying 'we're just people and there is no issue about our sex, orientation, colour, etc.' Being proud of who you are. And it's saying there is nothing 'bad' about being who you were born. Chavs is hardly a hereditary trait. Saying 'we're born this way and should just live and let live' doesn't apply. There are some traits learned by chavs that do need to change - whether a white, black, gay, asian, jewish chav (traits that aren't the issue). So I challenge the whole premise of needing 'chav pride'.

I'm all for free choices but personal responsibility. Glad to fund council housing. Just make it income tested each year and encourage people to support themselves. By all means have kids, but like we did, choose wisely and make sure you can raise them. Yes I know all the variables but we ere to much on supporting people who make poor choices. We're moving again to a society where its too easy to live off the state than not. Gotta watch that.

End benefit cheats, end council home rights for life and your kids and their kids, banish football yobs...you get the picture. Though strangely, I find Chav as a type quite a turn on.

Ha! Hadn't thought of that. Poor Camberwell rates poorly. I'm on the line so will say E Dulwich, or maybe Peckham!

Isn't the issue poverty and the colours secondary (thought related)?

Saw this over on the SE5 blog about crime stats. If true, shows Peckham rates better than ED! 1 East Walworth 23.8 (-4.3%) 2 Herne Hill 21.7 (+8.9%) 3 Camberwell Green 18.6 (+15%) 4 Oval 17.9 (+11.5%) 5 Brunswick Park 16.7 (+2.2%) 6 Newington (Elephant-ish) 13.8 (+18%) 7 East Dulwich (shock) 13.6 (-3.9%) 8 Tie: Coldharbour 12.9 (+10.1%) - Tie: Faraday (West Camberwell) 12.9 (-4.7%) 10 Peckham 11.3 (+16.2%) 11 South Camberwell 11.2 (-10.6%) 12 Kennington 10.7 (+0.8%) 13 Vassal (Myatts Field-ish) 10.1 (-26.1%)

A better exercise would be to instill pride into Chavs to give them hope of breaking the cycle.

The problem with stereotypes is they are only 80% true - so the 20% often suffer. The gay stereotype of camp (not probably 80% but significant) hurts those who aren't, but really the better attitude is 'so what?'. Problem with this home truth of stereotypes is accepting a lot of people do live up to them. Difficult for people of colour when they must battle against the majority who live up to the stereotypes. Chavs are an interesting lot - not really a 'trait by birth' but lifestyle choices. So a different camp altogether. As for being gay and black, now that's a double whammy. The black community, which has suffered great abuse, is actually far less tolerant. Proving those who are kicked don't fight back - they kick someone else.