Damian H

This is all a nice idea but the problem as I see it is this - the moment a bunch of 'yoofs' with hoodies or scarves over their faces would turn up, all these merry revellers would make their excuses and b**ger off home and the shop-keepers would draw down the shutters. The upshot is that we would be celebrating and supporting the community only with the tacit approval of the thugs - i.e. on condition they didn't turn up. That is preposterous. It's the same with this absurd 'clean up the riot' nonsense. The message of that is "let's hide snivelling in fear when the riot is going on and then come out and clean up someone else's mess afterwards and believe it makes us brave and community spirited." If we were brave and community-spirited we would be protecting our community and facing down these hoods in the first place.

By way of example, a few years ago I was in a coffee shop in Mile End in the early evening with a friend. It was near the Queen Mary's campus and a young woman was sitting near the window reading a book, completely engrossed and apparently feeling secure in a well lit coffee shop. I noticed a group of about four or five young black lads come in and start to crowd around her. SHe hardly noticed at first until one of them started to stroke her back and was effectively touching her up in broad daylight. It was all done very quietly and I am sure that had things continued they would have opened her bag and stolen her things, had a further grope and then left. Several other people noticed but pretended not to and looked away. I was not prepared to stand by and got up, walked over to them, told the barrista behind the counter in a loud voice to call the police and told the lads round the girl to leave her alone and get out of the place immediately. I was pretty nervous and was under no illusions that things might turn nasty and a knife could be pulled or the like. My eyes were on the stool I was going to pick up to clobber the first one who came near me. It wasn't necessary as they got the message and left, leaving behind a very up[set and shaken young woman who only just started to become aware of what had happened. A couple of local Indian traders came in and locked the door (the shop staff were hopeless) and they rang around various contacts to see if they could track down the lads responsible. From the calls I overheard one of their pals had collared one of them and was holding him. To cut a long story short, the girl was comforted and escorted home. Had it not been for one person standing up and meaning business (me) a young woman would have been robbed and sexually assaulted in a busy coffee shop. Once one person acted other people showed willing to join in. Psychological studies around the Bystander Effect and Deffusion of Responsibility show that if one person leads firmly others will act, but there needs to be a lead shown. As for the police....they were called. My friend and I waited forty five minutes to make statements. The police never showed!

colville09 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I think we have two forms of defence. The first is > to all get out and stand in LL when trouble is > threatened. Three or four hundred people will show > thirty little brats that they cannot expand their > territory, dominate and disrespect us. The second > defence is to use the digital realm and fight > back. Lets take a million images of each of the > little sods and identity them and make fun of them > online. These forms of defence sound weak but > could be very powerful. These prats have a > romantic notion they are dangerous street > fighters, years of mugging people and posing with > guns have lead to them thinking they can get away > with it. The reality of the sad little f**ks, if > you got them by themselves is that they would wet > themselves. They have power by being in a feral > group, lets find out who they are and dishonour > them, make fun of them. Like most bullies they > can't take being named or shown in a bad light. It > is beyond belief that we should be frightened of > them. Taking the piss out of them is the only way. > Lets organise and get everyone out. If nothing > else, we can have a good party. Remember if you > see a few kids trying to look hard, take their > photo, they will scatter. I completely agree with the OP and with colville. All the stuff about a fear of vigilante rule etc is so absurd and exactly the sort of thing that the gangs and hoodies would be chuckling into their scarfs about if they read it. Of course, the ideal situation is one where the police are responsible for policing the streets, but when they arent around then we need to do tbis ourselves. The alternative is for everyone to scurry around frightened whilst a bunch little thugs break windows and loot stuff. I agree that a co-ordinated presence of locals willing to stand shloulder to shoulder and deter those who come to ED intent on mischief is a superb idea. If things kick off again PM me and I will be along. There is absolutely no reason for this to disintegrate into mafia type action or illegality. Everyone is entitled to act in self defence and these thugs organise and operate on the assumption that they will meet no resistance of any type. Someone referred to Belfast, as if that is a catastrophic paradigm. Having lived most of my life there I can tell you that this type of neighbourhood watch was often used very effectively in vulnerable or threatened communities when rotas would be organised for groups of locals to keep an eye out at the edge of the community for any strangers or trouble makers making their way in. I see no reason why a watch could not be set up on a rota basis and any suspicious characters coming in simply politely challenged and asked what they are coming here for. Simply knowing they are being watched may be a deterrent itself. Many readers may not know that a similar system already operates linking many of the local traders through an alarm system in their shops. Any trader can hit the alarm if there is trouble in their shop and other traders in the system commit to rushing to their help if the alarm is tripped. I have been one of the cavalry turning up to help on a couple of occasions - all thankfully false alarms. All this would involve is that concept being expanded to a community basis. The bottom line behind all the concerns and fears expressed is that people are scared and intimidated and that paves the way for troublemakers to screw up our community.

zeban Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > RosieH, that's fantastic that Peckham is already > almost cleaned up. A comparative term, I assume.

rahrahrah Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > DJ talks about the whole community standing up to > these people. I completely agree, but where does > that start, if not with a few brave individuals > taking the lead. The jogger didn't turn round and > thump anyone, he stopped running because someone > was shouting at him. When a weapon was pulled he > stood his ground. He was not the aggressor in the > scenario described, but neither did he allow > himself to be intimidated. It shows courage and > will ensure that these kids are not further > emboldened in future. Just a thought here. When I was a student in Birmingham the area of Balsall Heath was absolutely notorious as a red light district. I had female student friends living there who would have kerb crawlers approach them on their way home etc. It was notorious for vice. I saw on TV or in a paper recently (can't remember which) that the area was completely transformed by local residents' action. Apparently they would have a group rota whereby they would take chairs out into the street and simply sit and watch the kerb crawlers as they went by and used a number of other non-violent methods to deter trade. The upshot was that over time the prostitutes moved on as their clients were scared off and the area changed a lot. Now, I think my views on the world's oldest trade have been expressed elsewhere and I think that more imaginative and constructive ways of managing prostitution in a safe and healthy manner for all could have been created at a legislative level but there is no doubt that the local action was effective. The question is whether there is actually a will to act in concert to challenge anti-social behaviour in East Dulwich or whether it is at too low a level for anyone to really want to bother about in an organised community manner.

ou need the RISE Model.

Debi Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Grame - I don't think I have got hold of the wrong > end of the stick. I maintain my belief that this > is malicious and that the people who will suffer > most are the children whose future has been thrown > into chaos as the result of this action. Nice way > to show gratitude for them being 'wonderful'. I am sorry, Debi, but are you suggesting that teachers (six of them it would seem, not merely one disgruntled person) should have said absolutely nothing about what they perceived as being highly inappropriate behaviour simply to avoid any awkwardness for pupils??? Such an opinion beggars belief. If there has been widespread cheating as alleged (and we will have to wait and see) then pupils will inevitably suffer somewhat but that is the responsibility of any individuals who may have been facilitating cheating NOT those teachers who chose to speak out. The notion that leaviung things to the last minute is evidence of malice seems nonsense to me. Whistleblowing like this, in an environment in which you have to work day in day out, is an extremely difficult and courageous thing to do. I know that because I have done it. The punitive pressure that can be brought to bear upon a whistleblower through a variety of subtle means can be quite staggering. I have corresponded in the past with people like Dr Kim Holt who was a whistleblower at Great Ormond Street about serious medical failings and was subjected to appalling treatment leading to an episode of clinical depression on her part. It may well be that the teachers involved had to go throuh a considerable amount of soul-searching and that it was time running out as end of term approached that forced their hand. It may also be the case that they wanted to be able to make the complaint and then have it investigated while they were on holiday, rather than having to endure the utterly toxic environment of sitting in a staff-room, teaching clildren, talking to the Principal etc, in a situation when they had made serious complaints against others. I would completely sympathise with that decision to safeguard their own welfare in the circumstances. Obviously the jury is still out. If the allegations were malicious and unwarranted, then the teachers should hang their heads in shame. If the allegations aretrue, then the six whistleblowers are heroes in my eyes and the only people who should be vilified and blamed for the distress to the pupils is those involved in the cheating. Don't underestimate what it takes to make this sort of complaint, and the appalling pressure than one can be placed under as a result, unless you have been through it yourself. Let me add - if these allegations were malicious, then six teachers (no matter what anonymity has been granted them) have effecively committed professional suicide. I can't imagine that six people would do that collectively unless they were convinced of the truth of what they were saying.

jimbo1964 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Sorry to hear about the horrible mugging. > > Unfortunately the American boot camp option > doesn't really work either as they have one of the > world's highest prison populations and highest > number of recidivists. > > I blame the parents. I blame the scapegoats.

Do you mean the MediCentres? There are a number of them dotted around in stations like Waterloo, Victoria and there is one near L'pool Street. Not sure if they do tetanus jabs though.

As a route I think it is utterly indispensable. Like most people I would like it to run a little more regularly.

I would merely observe that in terms of reporting the behaviour of these youths to the police, I wouldn't hold your breathe for a result. Recently a friend of mine was burgled in the middle of the night - three youths actually in his house with him, his partner and his baby and subsequently returning to try to steal the car. Despite being rung immediately it took the police until eight o'clock in the morning to turn up. What chances they would turn up at all for a report of a few mouthy teenagers?

Personally I think the crushing of perfectly good cars as some sort of deterrent is little short of criminal. To say the least it is not exactly green apart from anything else. THere must be other ways.

From WIki: "Although individual differences in personality exist, common traits exist throughout the Staffords. Due to its breeding, the modern dog is known for its character of indomitable courage, high intelligence, and tenacity. This, coupled with its affection for its friends, its off-duty quietness and trustworthy stability, make it a foremost all-purpose dog.[3] It has been said that "No breed is more loving with its family"[4] It is the only breed to have the words 'totally reliable' in its breed standard. Furthermore, the Staffordshire Bull Terrier is one of only two breeds from over 190 recognized by the UK Kennel Club to have a mention of the breed's suitability with children.[5][citation needed] The breed is naturally muscular and may appear intimidating; however, because of their natural fondness for people, most Staffords are temperamentally ill-suited for guard or attack-dog training. Staffordshire Bull Terrier puppies are very easy to house train.[6]" Information only - I have no personal opinion.

A friend of mine was burgled just off Lordship Lane last night. He had not locked door properly so they were opportunists who were just rattling handles it seems. He, his partner and new baby were upstairs so it was clearly very alarming. Burglars took TV and other stuff and tried to nick car. A lot of modern UPVC doors slam shut and seem to be locked to visual inspection but people forget to actually dead-lock them. Obviously burglars know this so try door handles on the off-chance. Please, please, please double check you have fully locked your door and if you see anyone testing doors call the cops immediately.

Any chance of applying for an ASBO? Or sending a solicitors letter to the mum telling her to ensure her children cease and desist or what-not?

Having seen the OPs reply, my position may have changed a little. I had assumed that this matter was simply an administrative error and that the school had sent out a letter by mistake, ignoring the agreement reached. If, however, they have simply decided to overturn an agreement that had been agreed by previous administrators that is a bit different. Without knowing more I wouldnt want to comment further. I still agree that the school is entitled fully to collect its dues and withdraw provision of service if fees arent paid but it does seem a bit off to renege on an agreement to pay arrears if it had already agreed to that. One for the Ombudsman perhaps?

Would the obvious way to deal with this not be for your friend to contact the school, tell them that she has set up an agreed payment plan to settle her arrears and ask why the letter was sent to her? Is there a reason why such an obvious course of action cannot be pursued? I imagine any private school is like any other business in that they will have to manage their accounts, cashflow and chase up defaulters. I don't see why sending out these letters at this stage is a little late in the day (other than for the school's cashflows perhaps) as it gives parents a couple of months to get things sorted. Do you mean that the school should have sent out these letters earlier and excluded children during last terms instead? It seems to me that the school are being extremely reasonable here and I just don't understand the thrust of the OP. As Bunny19 says - if you can't afford to pay for private education, don't enrol in it. If you fall behind in your payments, expect to be pursued about it and have the threat of withdrawal of service mentioned.

Damian H Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Alan Medic Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > @ Damian > > > > How did you know they were Romanian and why > were > > you ringing the police? > > > They were dressed in Romanian gypsy ethnic > clothing and had Romanian colouring and features > and a large sign around their necks saying "I am > ROmanian". Two of the afore-mentioned statements > are true. > > I was ringing the police because they had been > goingfrom shop to shop on LL attempting to make > small purchases for which they wanted to pay with > a ?50 note. The shopkeeper of one shop I was in > refused to accept the note and told me she thought > it looked hookey. > > Do you ever tire of being a troll? Oh, I just realised I failed to join all the dots for Alan. Passing off counterfeit currency is a criminal offence and I thought my suspicions warranted the police being notified. If they had turned up in time and found the notes to be authentic - well and good. If they found these ladies in possession of dodgy notes - they could have been arrested. Make sense?

Alan Medic Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > @ Damian > > How did you know they were Romanian and why were > you ringing the police? They were dressed in Romanian gypsy ethnic clothing and had Romanian colouring and features and a large sign around their necks saying "I am ROmanian". Two of the afore-mentioned statements are true. I was ringing the police because they had been goingfrom shop to shop on LL attempting to make small purchases for which they wanted to pay with a ?50 note. The shopkeeper of one shop I was in refused to accept the note and told me she thought it looked hookey. Do you ever tire of being a troll?

I remember not too long ago when a pair of Romanian gypsy women were walking into the shops on LL attempting to buy very small items with ?50 notes. They were turned away in a couple of shops and when I followed them out of one and was ringing the police on my mobile they saw me and quickly scarpered on a bus. Whilst it is not useful to racially stereotype, nor is it sensible to ignore a pattern.

It might be useful to look at Women and Madness and He's a Stud, She's a Slut. The first of these looks very clearly at how non-conformist sexuality in women (I.e. Actually enjoying it for it's own sake, rather than as an exchange approved/endorsed by powerful men) has often been used historically as a diagnostic criteria for mental illness in women. And how the full weight of the medical profession with it's power to incarcerate and treat against a patient's will was then engaged to bring these women back under the thumb. Geoff Masson has also looked at some of these issues in Against Therapy (lots wrong with his book, but some very good observations on the abuse of psychiatric power).

RosieH Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Damian, I think there was widespread concern among > women that the stunt was in fact a grotesque film > of self-harm that had come on the back of earlier > sexual abuse. There were serious concerns about > the state her mental health. The lack of > precautions taken (no use of condoms / sexual > health testing of the participants) and her > comment that she likes to be treated like a piece Rosie, I doubt that the vast majority of the women who decried Annabel Chong's behaviour did so for any of the reasonable reasons you give - nor were the majority even aware of her past. Their responses were gut level responses to something that offended them for reasons I doubt many of them could have articulated beyond comments along the lines of "She's a complete slut!". To dress up the outcry as being based on legitimate medical concerns is a complete Smokescreen. Let me put this scenario - let's assume Chongqing had got it on with fifty acts instead of 251, or let's cut it even further to twenty acts with a dozen men. Let's assume they had all been carefully screened for STDs and let's assume that she had been psychologically assessed and passed as mentally fully healthy - do you really think any of her critics would have been less vocal? I very much doubt it. The fury evokes was because a woman was openly engaging in casual sex with multiple partners without apparent shame or guilt and that touched something way deeper in many women than a mere concern for the medical implications. Listen for a moment to the way you are oppressing and second-guessing Chong, claiming to know her motives better than she did, without, I assume having met her. It has elsewhere been claimed that her behaviour was a reaction to being raped - says who? Chong? I don't think so. Whilst responses to rape will be varied and individual I am not aware that pursuing a career in pornography is a common one. This causal 'connection' between Chong's rape and subsequent behaviour has been created by others uncomfortable with any other explanation for her behaviour other than that she was traumatised and mentally ill. I am really shocked at you putting this forward. Throughout the history of male dominated psychiatry (large elements of it damaging to women) this pathologising of female sexuality has been a sorry characteristic. Effectively, many figures in such a psychiatric tradition have made the same abhorrent equation - a woman enjoying sex = mental illness. The only difference between them and your position is that you label her mentally unbalanced and pity and forgive her behaviour whereas a couple of centuries ago male doctors would have labelled her mentally unstable and had her locked up as a danger to right thinking people who needed quarantined. Where do you go from there? You point out that the blokes who screwed Chong would jot have wanted to marry or date her. How do you know? Assuming that is so, however, you have just seemingly unwittingly championed the very hypocrisy that you seem elsewhere to abhor. Effectively you have said "Because hypocritical men will sexually use but not socially commit to women who are openly sexually liberated and adventurous, women should be assailed and criticised for being sexually liberated and adventurous.". In short, you have endorsed the idea that male double standards should dictate a woman's behaviour, that women's sexual behaviour and expression should be dictated and controlled by whatever criteria is likely to be most acceptable to men seeking a wife!!! That position is utterly antithetical to any concept of female emancipation. At it's very heart, for example, is the notion that a woman can only achieve acceptance, value and security if she marries and becomes dependent upon a man. Consequently, implicit in your position, she must only be allowed to behave sexually in a way that MEN tell her will make her wife material. Chong made clear that her motives in what she did were to challenge this notion about what is acceptable sexual behaviour in a woman, thatba woman had a right to be sexually voracious as well as men had. Interestingly, throughout history, the only women who have been easily able to engage in fully liberatednsexual behaviour were those who were independently powerful and wealthy. Others had to play the game (rules written by men) in order to acquirensocial status that offered security. This game has been so lengthy and ingrained in society that most women (yourself included, it seems) have internalized this oppression and now self-oppress. Hence, when someone like Chong, publicly flaunts the rules, she is set upon by other women because she is destabilising the system that they perceive as being the best way for them to get ahead. That is what I mean when I described Chong as "de-basing the currency.". Effectively she said "Guys, we actually like sex for sex's sake. You don't have to marry us or wine and dine us or give us things to get us to shag you.". For many women who unconsciously carry the notion (whether they are aware of it or not) that sex has to be sold at the best possible price in exchange for marriage, partnership, financial security etc, this was a huge threat and they responded to Chong accordingly. The tragic irony is that they felt they were protecting someone from abuse and exploitation, yet their own responses emerged from a deep embracing of the Stockholm Syndrome of their own social disadvantage and inequality. The best prisoner is the prisoner who guards herself and attacks any glimpse of rescue or liberation. Rosie, you have claimed to know better than Chong herself why she did what she did. That is arrogant. You have thrown two allegations at Chong - that she was mentally I'll when she did what she did and that she had better wise up and behave if she wants tonget herself a husband partner. It is a deep and grim irony that by doing so you have just internalized and endorsed the two classic male strategies that have been used over the centuries to control women and their bodies! Those are the very prejudices that Chong set out to challenge and she stated that > of meat, and talking about the pain involved are > probably pretty instrumental in women's not taking > a positive view of this as some affirmative piece > of empowerment theatre. It blatantly wasn't. > > And of course the men were blase, 251 of them > @#$%& her. But would any of those men have > married or made her their girlfriend subsequently? > There's the dichotomy.

In terms of the Madonna/Whore dichotomy etc etc - Annabel Chong engaged in her high profile gang-bang (251 acts with about 70 men in 10 hours) for the express purpose of challenging the notion that a woman did not have the right to be sexually voracious without being roundly condemned. Ironically, as would be predicted by Hugeonot's earlier posts, many of the most vicious attacks and condemnations of 'sluttery' came from women not from men who seemed to be much more blasse and accepting about it. The reaction from many women, frankly, was as if Chong had just debased the currency.

P.S. It is the Medical Therapy (MST) section of ths site that would be relevant. Find it on the Navigation bar.

The Med-X rehabilitation equipment used at the Kieser centre at Mornington Crescent may be worth looking at. I know a couple of people who have been transformed by it. It is carried out after careful medical assessment and can be beneficial to people of almost all ages and with even extremely lengthy and debilitating spinal problems. It may be a bit of a jaunt to North London but the results may well be worth it. There is a lot of the research and evidence base listed on the site. http://www.kieser-training.co.uk/