Damian H

Ridgley, just in case you hadn't been watching the news, for a couple of days the police simply weren't THERE to do their job. What do you suggest people do in the meantime if their homes, shops and communities are attacked?

Apparently Superdrug have said that the products most looted were men's fragrances and hair products. What does this imply? That they were being stolen to order for resale by those who were using the riots for stealing items for resale. In other words, as has been said, nothing to do with social justice just plain organised criminality.

benmorg Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Fabricio the Guido Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > I have some pitchforks if anyone is > interested. > > haha! Probably no need though - I don't think > anyone with serious intentions to take on hoodies > would be stupid enough to discuss their intentions > on this forum as the police would be able to > identify them immediately if they seriously > injured anyone. The tough guys on EDF are all > mouth and no trousers. Do you really think so BenMorg? Seems a remarkably stupid post from you there. Firstly, you seem unable to comprehend the fact that some people might have more guts and community spirit than you and be willing to walk the talk. Secondly, what reason do you have for assuming that anything that is being proposed would be something that needed to be hidden from the police? I think that your post is a rather transparent case of projection.

Jeremy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > You are quite right that there is no > segregation > > in ED that excludes race or dress style but if > you > > have failed to notice that there are vast > ethnic, > > socio-economic and dress differences between ED > > and places like Peckham you really have lost > the > > plot or need to visit the opticians. > > Damian, not everyone in SE22 is white, middle > class, and shops in Lordship Lane boutiques. There > are large council blocks at either end of the main > road. My neighbours (in both my current and > previous addresses) have been of varying > ethnicities and had varied occupations. I think > you have an inaccurate impression of the local > area. Jeremy, I think I have made it clear that I am referring to the overwhelming majority. Tell you what - sit for a couple of hours on LL of an afternoon (as I did today by chance) and see what the general demographic is.

When we see a Footlocker and JD Sports open up and do a roaring trade on LL, and a Mrs Robinson and White Stuff break a few sales records on Rye Lane I will happily review the situation.

No. I am talking about odds and the combination of a number of factors - ethnicity, dress style and the fact that criminals often attempt to take steps to minimise the chances of being identified (such as not carrying out crimes on streets where they are known and recognised) and I think the combination of factors points to those muggers being from outside ED. If you read what I wrote you will see I used the word "seems" to indicate that it was not a certainty.

PGC and SJ, I am truly sorry that you feel such a need to be politically correct that you have lost the use of your physical senses and clearly your wit. Let me explain. You are quite right that there is no segregation in ED that excludes race or dress style but if you have failed to notice that there are vast ethnic, socio-economic and dress differences between ED and places like Peckham you really have lost the plot or need to visit the opticians. Let me suggest a simple exercise - open your eyes, engage your brain and spend an hour walking around ED and simply observe the people you see there. Repeat the experiment by walking around Peckham for an hour. I suspect you may notice a difference. One of these areas will present a far greater population of young black men wearing hoodies. Let me give you a tip - it won't be ED!!! That is not to say that said hoodies could not be ED based but it significantly reduces the likelihood. Add to that another element - the fact that people are unlikely to mug people right on their own doorstep or within a few streets (kind of increases the chances of being recognised and identified). Combine these two facts and there are pretty strong beting odds that the muggers in question are from outside the area. It's not 100% certain but highly likely. I mention Peckham but I am perfectly happy to accept the options of Forest Hill or Nunhead. My main point is they are much less likely to be locals. PGC you think I am a tit? Well there you go. At least I am not a tit whose perception and brain is so muddled by political correctness that he is unable to notice or appreciate evidence and patterns.

Not PC enough for you? Well, I guess they could have come over from Brixton or up from Croydon or down from Tottenham. However when the description is young black lads dressed in hoodies I think the closest likely origin is Peckham way.

Oh...and I forgot to mention two murders within a short period of time on Barry Road.

"Less likely to happen..." and "it didn't happen..." are not particularly comforting concepts in terms of risk management. I doubt that anyone would be considered responsible if they managed their insurance needs or identity security on such grounds. In terms of the types of shops that are likely to attract attention - leyt's look at what has been targeted so far. Sure, 'sports fashion' stores (an oxymoron if ther ever was one) have been targeted as have phone and electrical goods stores. BUT...so have food shops (several of those in court for looting in Croydon were done for looting food from Munchies bakery), and so have alcohol retailers (lots of those on LL) and so have clothes shops (a few of those locally although perhaps not to the taste of the average 'sarff London yoof'). The Tescos on Rye Lane and East Dulwich Road were both attacked (presumabl for food and drink)and let's recall that we have a well stocked Co-Op slap bang in the m,iddle of LL. And let's look at the front page of today's Metro where an 11 year old was in court for looting a bin. Other shops looted include Staples (anyone need some hookey paperclips?) and of course Reeves furniture store was burnt to the ground. I don't think we can possibly assume that LL stores contain nothing of interest to looters or arsonists. Lordship Lane is not hugely different from Lavender Hill Rise near Clapham - lots of bars and cafes and restaurants and that was hit very badly indeed by a plague of looters. Let's not forget as well the possibility of mugging. In around 2001 I was caught up unexpectedly in the short-lived Brixton riot that resulted from the police shooting a black man (history repeats itself). The riot may have kicked off due to police/community tensions but that didn't prevent a bunch of hoods fleeing a police baton charge from taking the opportunity to relieve me of my wallet and phone and break my glasses. We have seen over the last few months an alarming number of muggings that seem to have been perpetrated by Peckham gang members coming into ED for a bit of thievery. And let us not forget the major incident on LL some months ago when there was a serious knifing on a bus that had the Lane swarming with police cars, ambulances and the police helicopter hovering overhead. Whilst ED may be safer than Brixton or Peckham there is no mysterious forcefield around the area that would prevent it being invaded by an opportunist mob should things kick off again and they find that the police are too thick on the streets down in Peckham for comfort. As I said I hope things calm down now but I think it is naive to assume that ED can expect to live a charmed existence.

titch juicy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > LOL at suggestions of the need for this in East > Dulwich. > > A few windows were smashed on LL and people are > acting like their wives and daughters have been > raped, their homes ransacked and their first born > children taken away. I agree about perspective. Perhaps you could extend yours by a few hundred yards and notice what happened on Rye Lane? If the rioting had continued another couple of nights and the rich pickings in Peckham had been exhausted how long do you think it would have taken for some numpty to decide it might be interesting to stroll up to LL en masse? As we saw they actually looted the Tesco Express on East Dulwich Road and did turn up on LL even if not too much damage was done. Speaking as someone who lived in Belfast for 30 years and who got mugged in a frighteningly rapidly spreading public order situation in Brixton about tennyears ago I am well aware how fast these things can move. Anyone who has been following these events at all will have seen how they are being coordinated to move rapidly and unpredictably from one area to another. Did you not notice what happened on Lavender Hill in Clapham - another nice, fairly affluent, middle class area suddenly thronged by looters who came into the neighbourhood. If you really think that couldnt happen in ED you are remarkably naive, or perhaps you enjoy housework so much you prefer to let it happen and then go out with your broom the morning afterwards to clean up. > > A little bit of perspective goes a long way.

I agree with many of the points raised about proportionality etc, but I am concerned that there still seems to be an equating of what I am suggesting with angry violent action. It does not have to be that at all. I think that calm, sedate, proportionate action designed not to uneccesarily escalate situations wud be quite acceptable. I think we have to consider the alternative which in worst case scenario would be ED shops looted, burnt and innocent people attacked and injured. If confronted with such a scenario the concerns expressed about vigilante behaviour and The like pale into insignificance. Of course everyone hopes there will be no repeat of what happened and we hope the police will have the measure of the situation now, but shud a similar situation recur and an adequate police response not be forthcoming I think it is not just our right but our duty to act to protect our community rather than sit frightened and isolated awaiting a cavalry that isn't coming. Re the experience of others in having a swift police response to incidents - that's great when it happens. The problem is that such rapid responses are far from dependable due to resourcing issues. In the absence of a police response, threatened by a criminal mob on our streets, do we sit passively and hope it happens to someone else or do we act collectively to oppose the threat? To my mind, the answer is a no brainer.

I meanif you want something guaranteed risk free, no-one can give you that. The risk of no action is that people's properties could be burn down with people inside.

benmorg Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Damian H Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > benmorg Wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > ----- > > > Vigilantism going horribly wrong for the > Asian > > > communities in Birmingham according to > Channel > > 4 > > > News. > > > In what way? > > Three killed. > > Also, one unidentified man brain damaged in Ealing > trying to take on the hoodies. Let's look at those. One was someone drivng a car into three people. Could happen in a road accident. The brain damaged guy went up to a bunch of youths lighting a bin on his own - not smart.

Chick Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I hate looters, muggers, burglars, violence, > robbers (including banks), the thugs who used the > chaos to kick in people?s doors and rob them while > they were in bed and the vandals who smashed up > the likes of William Rose. > What I hate more is the lynch mob mentality which > when you scratch the surface has appeared on what > until now has been a very pleasant and useful > local resource-this forum. Shame on you. If you think this forum has invariably been very pleasant until now I doubt you have been following it very closely :-)

benmorg Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Vigilantism going horribly wrong for the Asian > communities in Birmingham according to Channel 4 > News. In what way?

It was on the tv. It went up in smoke. I was very sad, it was where I hired my Jack the Ripper outfit some years ago. Believe me, I know all about going out to 'clean up the streets'.

That's the spirit, folks.

I agree that you can guess the type of identity of those responsible by the fact that in Clapham Junction the JD Sports and Footlocker were looted. I doubt that Austin Reed was much harrassed. Mind you, they did burn out the fancy dress hire shop.

Yesterday, mid afternoon, there was a rumour of a gang moving down LL from the library end. There were dozens of shopkeepers standing outside their shops, trying to see what was going on, chatting and getting ready to pull down the shutters. I thought to myself that if even half of them had worked together and stood their ground in front of any such mob, the threat would have disappeared off somewhereelse for easier pickings.

I suggest someone actually give her some matches and petrol for the purpose. She is so classy she is bound to torch herself by mistake.

Is this creature the very definition of trash?

I believe that soltions have been put forward on the other thread on his subject but let me elaborate. Should the situation kick off again and it lok like the police will not be ableto meanngfully respond, the suggestion is that those who agree to be involved establish some sort of picket or watch at the periphery of ED. This could be arranged on a rota basis. Exchanging phone numbers and perhaps a couple of these people having cars woud enable some sort of oommunication and mobility. Any suspicious looking individuals coming into ED could be politely approached and asked wher they are going and what their intentions are. Th very fact that a group of people are aware of their presence, are observing them and are ready to challenge them might well have a considerable deterrent effect on its own. If someone brought along a video camera and was filming the entire mater and others were taking photos etc, that would be a further deterent as these little toads are creatures of anonymity. These people are after easy pickings and expect zero or minimal resistance. Do you really think they put in the windows of a shop and try to make off with goods if there are a dozen or so determined people standing there and saying that they will actively prevent that? It is exactly the sort of community action tactics that worked in some Turkish areas of London and that the Sikh community used near Ealing to protect their temples. It has also been used with great effect in Northern Ireland. It is also the type of community initiative that completely cleared up the Balsall Heath red light district in Birmingham.

I am not talking retrospectively, KK, as I did very much the same as you did. I am taking about what could be done going forward. There is a thread on here proposing some sort of co-ordinated stand should the situation deteriorate again and, frankly, some of the responses on it have ben pretty pathetic. I think you did the right thing on your own by ot tackling anyone and that is exactly why some sort of group presence would be desirable. I am objecting to those who are greeting the proposed future possibilities of community resolve on the other thread with insipid, wishy-washy objections. I also think it is very weak to think that it is some sort of triumphant stand or gesture of defance to wait until the trouble is over, go out and have a drink or a meal and think that is some powerful declaration of defiance. The thugs must be having a right old chuckle. They go out and riot, loot shops in their own area and then put their feet up (wearing the trainers they have pinched from Footlocker) to watch dvds on their newly stolen wide-screen TVs. Then they watch while a bunch of middle-class do-gooders from East Dulwich come down and clear up their mess. If any of them bother reading this forum I doubt they wll take it as to much of an affront or challenge to their criminal activities to know that we are deiantly eating fish and chips or enjoying a 'there'll always be an England' style drink on LL, when they know full well that all the drinkers and diners would scurry off home the moment a handful of them marched up LL with scarves over their faces.

No I didn't rush out with a baseball bat and I am not suggesting that anyone does something so crude. However, now that I have had time to be aware of and digest what has happened, I think I am suggesting something a little more robust than 'let's sweep up the mess and agree to have a pint and a curry in a local hostelry to show our support'. That latter point is nothing more than making some sort of pseudo-triumph out of exercising the right to do what we have done before with impunity. I am sure that the thugs responsible for all this are laughing even more that many of the good people of ED actually crept sheep-like down to Peckham to clean up the mess created by these hoods in their own neighbourhood! How much more of this masochism do we have to watch until someone says enough? I think that some of the responses to what has gone on are really lilly-livered, to be honest, and remind me of the United People's Front of Judea (or was it the Judean United People's Front) in the Life of Brian trying to give the impression of taking action by passing meaningless resolutions instead of doing anything gutsy. I make no apology for wha I suggest and the comments I have made and if some people thing I am being harsh then so be it. I doubt the baby steps you suggest would actually go anywhere if we start with something as 'radical' as 'let's defy the thugs by having a drink or a meal on LL when they aren't around.'