clive3300

Been there, was that :(

Surely a truly functional summer suit should have a built in umbrella / raincoat?

I quite agree. But I have seen numbers like this often quoted. I wonder on what they are based? 25k is really house-share territory

wierd decor inside the house. the food was v.good and reasonably priced, but the wine list was overpriced.

Louisa Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I disagree completely. The "new middle class", the > urban 20 to 30 something who has supplied ED with > the gentrification, are the very people who enjoy > wasting cash on extravagent lifestyles and > travelling, and I believe that this is primarily > because they do not understand the worth of money > and have failed to live through a recession when > times have been hard (that counts ofr most people > though) and secondly and probably most likely, > because aspects of snobbery run through their > veins passed down from previous generations. They > honestly believe that good living makes them > better in every possible way to poorer people, be > that for cultural or economicreasons. > > Louisa. I dont have official figures (as I cant be bothered to find them) but according to the times "Middle-class people have average incomes of ?25,500, some 24 per cent more than the average ?20,500 working-class income. " Well middle class "25 grand" is nowhere near what you need for the extravagent lifestyle you appear to think they have. A champagne / jet set lifestyle requires well over 100k to sustain. Interestingly from this linked article: The WORKING class A ?live for today? attitude; believe that income is the best measure of social status; borrow to spend on treats The MIDDLE classes Invest in shares and ISAs; believe that education is the best measure of status; live in a detached house The UPPER classes Generally describe themselves as middle class; avoid taxes; universally disliked

7. Communist Russia. Ideally during the purges.

Louisa Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Clive3300 for people on a low income that ?6 that > you shrugged off as cheap is actually an hours > work for them. You obviously fit into my catergory > of middle class who enjoys spending. You cannot > appreciate the value or worth or anything, you see > yourself as live today pay tomorrow. It worries > me. You know you arnt getting anything better, but > because you are wet behind and ears and because of > aspects of snobbery, you buy these more expensive > items anyway. You create class distinction in this > country, not people like me who raise these > issues. > > Louisa. Fabulous. I now am inspired to test the resilency of the chrome bumper of my new Range Rover on those povo kids selling matches on the other side of the railway tracks.

Sheesh, if I didnt know better, Id think you were in cohorts with Mrs clive3300.

GBK is certainly not high falutin' food! But its a very decent, solid burger. I generally happily pay ?6? for a GBK over ?2? for elcheapo chicken burger. I am not British so dont have the class hangups, but it seems that actively eating unhealthily seems to be more a working class thing than eating well is a middle class thing. I gather that people who are quite or even wealthy, yet view themselves as working class (e..g footballers, quite a few bankers, etc) appear to take pleasure in eating anything deep fried/greasy/covered in salt/tasteless/you get the picture. Its a cultural choice of some, and not necessarily an economic choice.

Yes, I too am a drive thru atm machine. However Mrs clive3300 doesnt even bother to put on make up for a withdrawl.

Louisa Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I quite agree Cassius, and the fact people are > prepared to spend a fortune on an item which has > the same cosmetic or natural purity as a cheaper > item then it proves my point about how fickle and > downright stupid the middle classes are. Go ahead > and spend money, i'd certainly not have it on my > conscience if I owned a snobby cafe locally! > > Louisa. Are you really as poverty-stricken as you make out? A fortune? On a cosmetic or a GBK burger? This stuff costs nothing. Seriously, if you are really horrified about the price difference between a chicken shop burger and a GBK, or different minor cosmetic products you should spend your time studying for a new career or something rather than ranting here. As with many people on this forum, I buy better quality stuff because I prefer it and the difference in price is irrelevant. Sometimes I get ripped off a quid here or there because I dont research and check for the best price on minor stuff. I am ok with this because I value my free time. I would never waste my free time price checking to save a few quid. Added, to be on topic BMC - I prefer it to greasy spoons (except on hangovers) but its not my fav.

Well I for one would like the market to increase a lot in size; quite happy for Louisa to have some stands selling second hand food / clothes / junk for 50p - so long as there is some good stuff worth looking at too.

macroban Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Try July 2007. come again?

Louisa Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > clive3300, I would hardly describe London at the > zenith of it's history. London is a decaying, > grubby city which was once the capital of a huge > empire, and is now the only half decent thing the > UK has going for it (aside from Ken Dodd), so > please dont patronise me with the b*llocks about > how this wonderful great capital city is so great, > we all know the UK has had it, and is on a gradual > downward spiral. > ... > Louisa. I had intended to mean in terms of wealth (the point of my original post) - but rereading, I see that isnt quite what I wrote. London was mostly hideous by modern standards until well after the 2nd world war. Shared houses and outdoor ablutions were almost the rule even into the 70s. Am busy reading a book called "London in the 20th Century". Quite an eye opener. At the end of Victoria's reign it was indeed the capital of a huge empire, but by modern standards was very much a "developing world" city. Probably lower than modern south american cities in wealth. London is a pretty mixed rich/poor city, but you'd be nuts to say its in any sort of downward spiral relative to its past in any absolute wealth terms.

*Bob* Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Don't get sucked-in, Clive. > Louisa has a good job, wireless internet and > occasionally works on a laptop in the garden of > the valuable home she owns - recently undervalued > (apparently) by Foxtons, I believe. > > So.. under the monotonous bluster, she is, in > fact, very SE22, darling. A laptop ::o? Whats wrong with a good old pencil and paper? Some people, really are above themselves. Actually how about a piece of coal on a piece of old newspaper previously wrapping fish (from Somerfield, of course)?

The real Italian thing seems very hard to master. I have been to Italy countless times and am invariably blown away by how they can invariably make a meal with 3 ingredients and Euro10 table wine taste phenomenal. Its something to do with the soil and how it affects taste, but also a deep and geniune interest in quality from a long term professional hospitality industry. I mean a margerita-type pizza (base, cheese, tomato, heat) in the UK (and most other countries) is usually tasteless chewy muck. But its actually invariably delicious in Italy. And I am talking about generally eating at local workman's trattoria's - the equivalent of the UK's greasy spoons.

The City. Originally discovered ED because a ?20 cab ride radius went through it. Handy for nights out :)! The trains are good, and the commute short.

Louisa Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > You'll probably end up > travelling outside of London one day and seeing a > bit more of life, > > Louisa. Louisa, why is being hopelessly poor and having no choice in anything such a virtue? It really sounds like you would have really liked to have grown up in communist Russia: Where everything, if available, was cheap, shoddy and just the same as everyone else. Definitely no one was having any illicit fun buying nice things for pleasure. This is the 21st century: Society has prospered since the 70s / WW2 and in fact most people can afford to live on a lot more than 60shillings a week. In fact lots of people in this town make lots of money and enjoy spending it on good stuff and having a good time. This expenditure employs a lot of people too. If you cant see this, you are not going to be happy living in one of the worlds most successful financial capitals at the zenith of its history. Can I suggest a move to Pyong Yang? No yummy mummies there.

Unfortunately the hospitality industry overwelmingly relies on nearly the cheapest people money can buy. Until restaurants / cafes feel the market will bear the higher costs of better staff, this is always going to happen. I wonder how much the total running costs of a restaurant would change if they increased wages from ?6/7 to ?10 an hour. Just asking.

Like many other London restaurants that remain inexplicably successful, the food and service remains unreliable or even poor because most people going there wouldnt know or care what good is, or actually get a perverse enjoyment from how bad it is. The endemic British lack of quality expectations (and it is a British thing - the rest of Europe and the developed Commonwealth doesn't share it) seems partly a perceived class issue. E.g. Louisa who thinks that anyone who wont just accept any old crap chucked their way is some sort of arrogant toff and is directly responsible for all that is wrong with the world: One should prove one's worth by only eating soggy chips and cold beans.

That building is awful. What's with the green plastic looking side facing the hill.

snorky Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > not all of ED residents can afford to spunk a > tenner on a gourmet Burger when they are peckish. > A jumbo kebab is the thick end of a fiver these > days > > You may not like the stuff ( nor Do I really ) but > for a couple of quid - the price of a couple of > bags of crisps and a can of pop - you can get a > meal in these places with a modicum of protein and > enough fat to keep you going for a few hours - if > they didnt get the business, they wouldnt be there > still Actually I quite like Favourite - the burger meal with fillet of fire and the free apple pie is one of my "favourites". I certainly dont want it all organic delis, but generally IMO Lordship Lane is much improved in looks, range and quality in just the 2 years I have lived locally. I also frequent the greasy spoon next to the Palmerston which has cured many a potential hangover. However I also dont mind spending ?18+ on wine etc, and I like that there are shops that provide these goods along with quality deli products . ...And a cab driver did indeed tell me he wouldnt take to ED in the past.

Why are clearly improving standards of goods and services - in line with generally rising prosperity - such a problem? Sure, some of the shops can be silly and overpriced, but dont go there. I have been repeatedly told that East Dulwich was pretty awful 10-15 years ago - cab drivers wouldnt even take you there etc. I dont understand why many people on here seem to want to hold on to crummy, threadbare pubs and chicken shops selling crap food, semi-derelict, ?1, 2nd hand or vacant shops etc: as still exist in most of SE London?

I cant imagine why you think that would help, but thanks for your efforts

TobyJackson Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > ...Cocktails are our speciality. We > have 60 cocktails in our menu and our bartenders > can make another 20-50 if needed. Toby - are your bartenders going to actually know how to make all these cocktails properly? Surely limiting them to fewer that they really know might be safer? In my experience suburban bars mostly make awful cocktails (not just Liquorish). There is more to good cocktail than reading the ingredients off the menu, adlibbing or skipping the ingredients that arent available, putting them in the closest glass to hand, stirring and presenting. Then trying to charge ?7-10.