Louisa

I consider myself to come from a traditional working class background - economically I am probably middle-class nowadays, in social terms I probably still adhere to a working class lifestyle.. Though it varies.. I am not going to be a hypocrite here, I am quite happy drinking in all sorts of pubs. But I know which ones I like best, and they are usually traditional interior, mixed drinking crowd, and sometimes a piano or some sort of music in the background.

And yes this is still on topic because the White Stuff is a good example of one of these businesses...

From the people I talk to, the resentment isnt about jealousy or wealth - it's about forcing social change onto an established community via the forces of economics. We have no choice in the matter, if these people choose ED as a cheaper alternative to Clapham or Putney, then they can move here on mass and fuel the fire for a growth in businesses/services aimed solely at them.

Dreaming - "Louisa - ho hum darling, your missing the nail's head by a mile as usual!"...........zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz............. "Bigotted ideas about class are so enlightening.".............zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..................... "The middle calsses cannot be both obscure and still be taking over the world".............zzzzzzzzzzzzz............................ Mr Louisa - Wake up dear it's just a dream Louisa - *mild anxiousness* oh god *eyes open* am I still in ED? Mr Louisa - Yes dear, of course you are, you were having a bad dream thats all. Now lets get up and get ready to go shopping. We need some meat from William Rose, some organic veg from north cross rd, and then we can go and have a nice continental lager at inside 72. What do you say? Louisa - Can you slap me... just the once.. I need to make sure these pills are working..

Huguenot I think you may well have hit the nail on the head to some extent here. The 'type' of person who I often refer to in this so called 'class' related clash we have in ED is more than just a perception. What strikes me most is the way in which a relatively average typical south-east London suburb can be so easily transformed into something 'vibrant' and 'fresh overnight', when other areas struggle for years to get rid of a tarnished reputation. The 'newcomers' manage to not only give the perception of change and upward mobility in an area like ED, but they also manage to somehow isolate and remove the long standing community by attracting new businesses (eg White stuff), often with the opinion that stores they dont use should be replaced by something better. I have read many posts about how great it is to have White Stuff replacing Walsh Glaziers along LL, and although I doubt there is anything malicious in it, I have a feeling they do not really see how something so small can further isolate people who have lived here for generations. We all know White Stuff is located in other gentrified areas of London (eg Notting Hill, Islington, Battersea), so trying to suggest they are ethical and it's better to see them than a shop noobody uses isnt really helping people like myself warm to them. I will mix with anyone and everyone, I do not use class as a measure of an individual's personality. What I do see, is a whole 'group', if you like, of people who earn a certain amount of money, choose a certain 'lifestyle', only use certain shops and bars, tend to speak a certain way (not refering just to accents here) and often are at least perceived to look down their nose at people who have perhaps lived in ED longer. I remember seeing this happen when I was working in Islington back in the 1980s and it worried me then, never would I have thought they could transform ED in roughly a decade. I cant imagine the working class community transfotming Chelsea overnight can you? Economics speak rather loudly, and sadly they can destroy cultural and social traditions. The many chain stores I visit is testimony to the fact I am quite happy to shop on a High Street, so my issue with White Stuff isnt anything other than the fact they cherry pick gentrified areas to sell their clobber, and use some appauling marketing skills to try and make them appear local and in touch with the people.

where is 161?

Michael that isnt entirely true. He actually lived in the East End of London. But anyway.

*Bob* - you are such a card. Jeremy - You run very close in second spot but i'm afraid you dont get the cigar :( Marmora Man - If I can find a way of exposing the unrealistic and completely obscure way the midlle classes of London live to the online world I shall do so. If this country were invaded by aliens i'm sure they would come to ED first because they would be able to get on with the bizarre ED newcomers easiest. Your ideas of school dinners are very tabloid, and the working classes wrote some of the greatest books of all time. Peckham Rye park still has vandals and dogs mess and people spitting everywhere, not to mention the bizarre South African and Aussie ex pats cooking meat on bbq's along with the odd newcomers who want to imagine theyre on Clapham common! As you say though, back to topic, what sort of person do these bars attract? oh yes, we've covered that hehe Louisa ;-)

I have nothing against chain stores - and whats wrong with Debenhams may I ask? They sell some good quality clothing!

You certainly wont find working class people visiting half of these expensive crappy little bars along LL, for a whole host of reasons. Whether this person means that a particular accent is associated with certain people(classic example being a night out in the Crown and Greyhound old chap) is another matter. I think it is a shame that regional accents are dying. The blandness of the newcomers into ED can be summed up by the dreary middle of the road accent. I dont know where they get it from, probably 3 years of uni does the trick!

I agree, I often go to Debenhams in Bromley and the quality of clothing is far superior to that of White Stuff in my opinion. Then again, I wouldnt say no to buying a few woolies from WS in the future.

C.S Forester, Novelist. Boris Karloff, Actor. Ben Scott (of AC/DC fame) Musician. Charles Dickens (well more the village but its local enough) Author/Journalist. Enid Blyton, Novelist. To name but a few...

I have more than enough mirrors at home to check myself out in ;-)

ratty I know what you are getting at, but lets not go there on this forum because it may well end up with you being strung up and put in some stocks on Goose Green, with yummies and arty types throwing 'slightly past it's sell by date' organic tomatoes and bananas at you!

Most of the really famous ED faces (non-soap opera) are sadly six feet under.

Leave Dulwich DIY alone, why does everywhere have to be bright and shiny? There is nothing wrong with a bit of peeling paint and worn signage, it shows a shop which has longevity, unlike so many others in ED.

Sean, I agree. But i'd still rather see Walsh Glaziers in business than a fancy clothing shop. Call me sentimental! :)

It was ok actually.. I would probably buy a few things from there, especially when I next jump a cheap flight to the Alps for a skiing holiday. I still think it looks and feels very much like a High Street shop inside.

I think ED will surpass Clapham on the posh factor, because as you say Jeremy, Clapham does have some very rough housing estates, whereas ED has realtively few examples of no-go areas.. Most of the council blocks are on land owned by the Dulwich Estate anyway.

"Yes, no more oppressing the English working class by preventing them from oppressing the working classes of other countries" Let's face it, if any country is good at oppressing the working classes it's the British. On a more serious note, working class people often dont get a choice where they can buy their clothing from. White Stuff is a drop in the ocean, and they carry the ethical label more than likely because it gives them the oppurtunity to charge double the price for a jumper you could get in Primark.

I will give it my full support. Nunhead has some great independent businesses, Sopers being a prime example of a great fishmonger.

peckhamboy.. I do try.. but oh well, if we end up like Kings rd (apparantly a fancy shoe shop plans to open up here from chelsea) then so be it.. I am exhausted after earlier..

Jah the silly man comment was not meant in a nasty way, it was a lighthearted thread about a z lister from the 80's! I would appreciate a gin and tonic at the Plough though (even though i'm not a fan of the place ;-))

Sean you are missing the point I think. Jah made a very personal comment about myself and the things I have to say on this forum. I did not initiate any sort of personal attack on Jah. I admit I do say a lot of negative things, but only when I feel I need to. I do not go around pointing out to other posters they have a lot of negative or positive things to say, so therefore I must be being monitored by Jah. Who incidently claims I have now made a couple of personal attacks, even though non of these have been substantiated. I then am accused by you of making a personal attack on Jah. You failed to point out Jah had made the attack personal in the first place, not myself. White Stuff can post if they wish, but getting hold of an employee and using a free website to promote and advertise in a 'personal' way, makes them come across as sneaky and not quite what the label says. That was all I was trying to say, and then find myself personally attacked by someone who then shys away from the disagreement by getting you to defend them!

Jah previous post was flawed in so many ways its not even funny. Maybe you should work for the marketing department at White Stuff (maybe you do!). Firstly, can you give solid examples of direct insults from me to you over this public forum. You made this public, not me. I've given an example above. Now it's your turn! How exactly have I given myself enough rope to hang myself? I was posting again the manner in which White Stuff tried some underhand promotion. You took it upon yourself to use my respone to that as a way of personally attacking me, and I am sure I have made that very clear now, and no doubt Sean will be able to see that too.