first mate

Rockets said: "Well @Earl Aelfheah I am no expert, and I am sure you're not too, but the assembled panel of experts for the London Assembly meeting to address declining bus speeds would not agree with you. They all agreed that carriageway pressure is one of the major contributing factors (along with roadworks). One specifically cited cycle lanes, LTNs, 20mph limits and public realm as key factors affecting bus speeds. Interestingly later in the discussion they talk about growing evidence that routes with interventions are some of the worst performing." I second this; I did not listen to the whole of the session, but from what I gathered length of cars was not mentioned at all or considered as a contributing factor in slower bus speeds. The problem with removing parking spaces on LL is that it flies in the face of Southwark Council's carefully devised CPZ plans, where it has said it will protect local businesses who fear losing out on shoppers in cars trade by ensuring paid for parking slots on LL and adjacent residential streets. This was all rationalised as balancing the needs of shoppers in cars with those of residents requiring parking space. When the CPZ plan first came out I immediately pointed out potential issues with buses and many of you were silent on the subject.

Surely both driver and cyclist might be prosecuted? The cyclist at night without lights on would be cycling illegally.

But you did not qualify not proceeding/stopping with an 'if necessary' and that is what I am quibbling about. Your version sounded like if momentarily dazzled by lights you should stop/not proceed.

Yes, but slowing down isn't. Come on Earl, you made it sound like if you are momentarily dazzled you should not proceed.

Yup, just not addressing the points you made; so, so obvious. Still nothing from DulvilleRes. If you make attacks and claims like that, at least have the decency to provide the 'proof'. You may have a point- perhaps they exist only in the imaginations of some. Not saying all cycle lanes are not busy, just some.

'Slowing down and stopping if necessary' is reasonable. Earl seemed to suggest you should not proceed at all, which reads like stopping immediately.

@Earl AelfheahAt that time, the mayor suggested that in such a scenario cycling could increase 10-fold and walking five-fold post-lockdown. It is a phrasing that infers that if certain things were changed there would be a ten-fold increase. The motive here is to persuade those changes are worth making to get 'that result'. Anyhow, my issue here is that DulvilleRes said Rockets had been "proven wrong"...again and called him a propagandist. I see no conclusive evidence to support that claim at all. In fact, I would argue that is the kind of hyperbole and character assassination that reads far more like propaganda.

@exdulwicher Thanks for the stats lesson. But, DulvilleRes stated that Rockets had been proved wrong, quoted below. Please can DulvilleRes detail specifically where on this thread's issue Rocket's has been "proved wrong"? We are talking here about "proof" not just views or interpretations of data.

If you are momentarily dazzled by oncoming headlights, or for that matter flashing bicycle lights, you should just stop dead? Is that what you mean?

It has gone very quiet. Looking forward to @DulvilleRes response.. Malumbu told us that he performs a community service by driving around checking on various aspects of road design to ensure they are working properly. It will be most entertaining to see him do this on a pogo stick. Let us know when he starts.

@Spartacus Where exactly would an East Dulwich Christmas tree sensibly go ? Only possible place is the middle of the goose green roundabout. How about on the newly paved Melbourne Grove North, next the station? Or have something with lights on Goose Green? This is a great idea. Just some lights on the palm could look fantastic.

@CPR DaveWe are talking about Lambeth Council, not Southwark, but I agree. It will be interesting to see if Lambeth fill part of that space with another hire out to a private events company. As to the idea that what is gained financially from hiring out Peckham Rye Park is a good trade off, does not account for long-term damage to the park and the loss of access to the community for a month at least, in the best summer months where trees and shrubs are in full bloom and animals are birthing or rearing youngsters. For the Council to claim they are 'green' when they allow this is hypocrisy at its finest. @Northern Star Thanks, so they say. I'd love to see a list of these high quality free events and what they entail. I am not aware of any high quality free events in and around ED. Stand to be corrected though. Crikey, seems like they cannot even let Lordship Lane have Christmas lights this year.

Having lights and reflectors is not just "right", it is a legal obligation.

Surely it is about drivers being more aware and cyclists also taking personal responsibility to ensure they have what is legally required and dress to make themselves as visible as possible. Yes, a driver not paying attention is culpable and may cause harm; a cyclist cycling without lights in dark clothing at night is also culpable. I see a gap in the market for hi-vis cycling trousers- based in the research about visibility and movement.

Good to hear the cyclists actually waited behind the red light. I think it just depends where you are. Closer to the centre of town, yes, but every time I go past Sydenham Hill, I am lucky to spot one if any cyclists.

Probably not good for pedestrians either.

You'd think with all that parking fee surplus swishing around they could afford to do something? I see Vanity Square has its Christmas tree and lights already. We have always had lights in the past. Perhaps Cllr McAsh is against such things?

But then you could also argue that people should not bother using lights on the back of their bike, as if a driver behind them isn't looking they'll come a cropper anyway. There is no conclusive evidence hi-vis does not work at all, if there was then I doubt the police would shell out to use it, ditto road workers, horse riders using the road, lollipop workers etc.. In fact, the government line was not about efficacy but concern that it might put off those new to cycling - I wonder where that idea came from.

Had no idea this was happening so missed it. Did many go? I would have if I had known.

Yes, woken up by that one; presumably not a wedding!

@Earl Aelfheah the idea that you are not allowed to articulate a potential problem unless you have the solution is what is truly ridiculous and is what you seem to be suggesting here. The first stage is some agreement that there is a growing problem; the challenge is in identification and policing.

@Sephiroth I agree and since most affordable courier companies now expect you to stay in for at least half a day for a delivery and even then have weasel-worded T&Cs that outline that half day 'window' as an aim not a guarantee, making it is moveable delivery 'feast', it is no wonder parcels go missing.

But surely it is obvious the issues that can arise if it is not easy to tell the difference between the two, where an illegal e-bike looks very similar to a legal one? How are you supposed to police this? I don't really get why you are nitpicking this point?

On your final paragraph, I don't doubt it. There are aggressive car drivers and they are a menace to all road users, including pedestrians. I have not yet looked at the research around hi-vis but I am confused why reflective anklets and the like are 'worth the investment' presumably because they make the cyclist more visible but hi-vis jackets don't? I then wonder why construction workers on roads, police, horse riders on the road, all wear hi-vis are they all mistaken that hi-vis jackets make them more visible? I have had a quick read and found the government response a bit odd. They did not say that the evidence for cyclists wearing hi-vis clothing is weak but just that they were worried making it mandatory might put people off cycling. What is the evidence that it might, especially when we consider that lights and reflectors are already mandatory but some are cycling without anyway?

Yes, well a lot of the above infractions also occur in daylight...just in case you had not noticed;)