first mate

Even if it were true you'd have to analyse that information carefully- how many 'Staffs'( possibly many dogs look like Staffs but are crossbreeds) there are per head in the population and how this compares statistically with other breeds ( if there are many more Staffs than other breeds the number of bite incidents might seem higher but statistically be no different from many other breeds). A staff that bites will do more damage than a chihuahua, but the actual level of aggression might be comparable- one incident might land a child in hospital the other might not. Quite apart from all this one would also have to look at the ownership of such dogs- my hunch is that 'Staffs' are currently more abused and maltreated by unsuitable owners than other breeds. Abused animals turn bad. I doubt a really in depth study of this has been done- I also seem to recall that in the last 10 years Daschunds topped the list as people biters, with chihuahuas and cockers both ahead of the pit bull- no sign of staffs.

Puzzled, I do not agree with you there. Some lines of Staff are dog aggressive, others not. Those who breed responsibly and have in depth knowledge of breeding lines will tend to know that the last thing most people want is a dog that attacks other dogs. I know of a number of Staffs that are reliable with other dogs. They have been bought from reputable breeders who know what they are doing, they have been properly trained and socialised with other dogs from puppyhood and they are well supervised- they are no problem. I believe a major factor in all this is the backyard breeders who are deliberately breeding from dog aggressive strains (or unwittingly; people often don't understand that dog on dog aggression is totally different from aggression to people and so if the dog is people friendly it must be okay with dogs. Not so). These breeders are also mixing the Staff with goodness knows what, so you have a dog that looks like a Staff but may have a very different temperament. My sister in law has a KC registered Staff, very well bred by people who have been in the breed for years and really know what they are doing. She is fine with other dogs and she has been taught how to behave around them too. None of this "oh he's fine" shouted across the park while on a mobile!!

MsC, I agree- where people are concerned you won't get a more naturally people-friendly breed than a purebred Staff- ditto Pit bull- well perhaps a Cavalier just pips them to the post!! Anyhow, my point is that it is with other dogs that one has to be careful. They are terriers and whilst not as quick tempered as some working strains of JR's or Patterdales, for example, they will not back down if really pushed that 'hold on till I die' trait is ingrained in them (don't Staffs just love a game of tuggy). I also do believe that Staffs, a bit like Labs and Goldens, have a body language that is often hard for other dogs to read, they can be very 'in your face' and other dogs can take offence and then problems start. Quite aside from all that we cannot deny that the dog fighting heritage still comes through in some Staff lines and they are the kind of dog that cannot be trusted with other dogs, no matter how gorgeous they are with people. You hope that sensible people, breeding for family pets would not breed from dog aggressive strains, but people can be very silly- as we know and there's also no denying that some take a secret pride in the fact that their dog is 'king'. Of course, the key is knowing how to train and socialise your particular breed. With Staffs, because they have a natural affinity for people, a lot is about teaching them how to get along with other breeds of dog.

Cassidy, It is unfortunate, but the fact is that the type of owner that is up to no good and makes a bad dog owner is, currently, inavariably attracted to a bull breed of some type, often a Staff or Staff mix. The fact is that most rescues are overflowing with dogs of these type, a fair few with behavioural problems. We cannot argue with the facts. In the right hands most dogs can make good pets but you have to know what is what with each breed. I agree, you get some very laid back Staffs, the sort that are great with people and dogs, but a glance at any decent breed description of a Staff will mention that they can be unreliable with other dogs- a genetic byproduct of their fighting dog ancestry. I agree you can get horrendous Jack Russells but, with regard to other dogs, they are never going to inflict injuries on the scale a Staff can. Children of course are a different matter. In my view, breeds like Rotties, Dobes, Shepherds, Akitas and Shar Pei are just as worrying, if not more so, in the wrong hands because they have a strong guard instinct. It is sad for the bull breeds that so many idiots are attracted to owning them.

I think we all agree something needs to be done, but it's finding measures that will whet the appetites of our politicians, enough for them to want to drive them through into law. I'd love to hear thoughts from our current and would be councillors......?!

Brendan, the devil is in the detail.

Yes, all fair points but you've still got to find a way of having licensed breeding working alongside neutering for dogs that are not kept for breeding and how do you keep these categories separate and policed? In saying that I am assuming that you do not wnat to see the end of all dogs?

MsCrawthew, I understand where you are coming from but perhaps compulsory neutering is not the way to go unless such a measure could be amended to include a carefully monitored license for those who want to keep their dogs entire and to breed. I suspect such a system would be costly to introduce and to monitor and therefore not very attractive to politicians- but it is an idea. You are right that certain bull breeds like Staffs would have to be maltreated to make them people aggressive, but much of what we see now is not pure bred and crosses to guard breeds have been introduced in order to make such dogs more people wary. The American Bulldog has both a strong prey drive and is wary of strangers naturally- making it a good guard breed but rather unsuitable for urban life without very careful training, supervision and control. The problem with Staffs is that while they may be highly people friendly they have a naturally strong prey drive and are not reliable with small animals and other dogs, unless, again, they have been carefully trained, socialised and are monitored around other dogs from puppyhood. For instance Staffs need to be taught how to play with other dogs. They play in a very rough way naturally and other dogs are often intimidated by such play and a fight starts; it goes without saying that many a Staff will not back down once a fight has started. No amount of neutering is going to solve these issues although any reduction in testosterone may reduce the drive to certain behaviours.

In the case of this dog there are a number of accounts of it attacking other dogs, not just Woody. Woody was the last that we know of. Any responsible owner, knowing that their dog might attack other dogs would not let their dog offlead toroam a public park. In this case this is exactly what the owner did. I do not believe this dog was a rescue, but even if he was, the facts point to the fault for the attack on Woody being the fault of the owner, absolutely.

emilydrab, Yes, you've highlighted a lack of joined up thinking by the police on a very public forum- it does not invite confidence. Let's hope the MET, SNT, relevant councillors etc.. take note. I'm sure we will all do our best to make the meeting in May. On another note, I cannot help but feel mixed reactions about Monty. Some dogs, like people, are born bad bad most are made that way by their owners. I very much doubt that Monty's owner encouraged his dog to attack other dogs, but simply couldn't be bothered to train him or deal with his specific breed traits. Had he done so, Monty might have lived his life out happily and Woody would not have had to pay such a high price. Very sad. Well done Emily, you did the right thing.

Emilydrab was quite clear that she had given the police all the details she had plus involving the SNT and the RSPCA, so it is odd that the police claim to have heard nothing other than via the forum. I wonder did the police ask her to make a formal complaint or as she seemed to imply were they not that interested and so advised that there was little point?

PR, What a shame the date was changed, cannot make tonight- can you please let us know of any news with regard to this issue and indeed of the concern of many forumites that something is done to the owners of dangerous dogs and dogs not under control, but that this concern is not twisted into a means to penalise the majority of law abiding dog owners.

TQ, I'd love to help you get over that fear- most dogs are lovely you know:)

Tony Q, As a responsible member of the community I'm sure that you too will say something to members of our society that behave in an unsocial manner- not quite sure why only other dog owners should have sole responsibility for educating the ASBO dog owner. Bit like saying "Parents if you spot a teenager doing something anti-social like flashing in a public park or car jacking say something - parents sort it out! Doesn't quite make sense, does it? You just can't lump everyone together, at least you can but it's a bit meaningless. Surely the point is that everyone who cares will do something and try to sort things and the few that don't care probably won't.

kingy68, Sorry, my comments were not meant to be a direct criticism of you or your dog. I'd be the first to support your right to have your "normal" dog enjoying a run on the Rye. I was making a general observation that in the area around the cafe it probably does make more sense to keep dogs on a lead- bizarrely the people who seem to do this least, in my experience, are parents with dogs and children. Given the growing anti dog brigade I feel it makes sense to avoid anything that can add fuel to a growing fire :) I am clear that your dog had a momentary "mad" moment, as dogs do, when he jumped into the children's play area- and as a responsible dog owner I'm sure you'll avoid it happening again. I think the big problem is that a lot of us- dog owners and non dog owners alike- are edgy and extra vigilant because of the small but signifcant population of dogdgy dog owners. As I have said before, the sad thing is that walking a dog is not nearly as relaxing as it used to be. I too have owned dogs for over 20 years in ED and the changes in the last few years are really noticeable. I never felt I had to have eyes in the back of my head like I do now. I also think that owners of small dogs are even more sensitive to the proliferation of dog fighting breeds because the damage, as to poor Woody, can be especially horrendous.

Catalyst, I posted a picture of the type of dog we are talking about earlier in this forum- we have to be very careful about targetting people unless we are crystal clear about the facts. In my view dogs should not be running around offleash right by the cafe, but, I have to say that by far the biggest offenders on this count( from what I have witnessed, and it's only my experience, of course) are the parents who have a dog and child/children. Of course dogs that grow up with children are likely to be okay with other children, but not necessarily other dogs, particularly if those dogs are close to their children. Thus ALL dogs should be kept under close control right by the cafe area.

JB1000, I am concerned by what you have written. When you say "aggressive" dogs, does this refer to incidents where you have witnessed or been on the receiving end of a dog attack on Peckham Rye in the last year, or is it a descriptive phrase applied to all bull breeds, in that you fear them because of the bad reputation they now have as a group? If it is the former it would be helpful to give a description of the events/s, the dog and owner involved, when it happened and who if anyone witnessed it. As has already been mentioned dog walkers are amongst, if not the most, prevalent all year round users of the park. We all tend to know of each other and each others dogs, so we have a good idea of what goes on.

SarahlovesPeckham, It is a testament to your dog's extremely good breeding and solid temperament that he came away from that experience without developing serious issues around other dogs- Irish Terriers can be pretty feisty. Alas, your experience is yet another piece of evidence that indicates that Monty is with an owner that does not understand his breed or how to control him. Monty needs some serious training and then to be rehomed to a highly experienced owner. If the dog has bitten his current owner (I have also heard this and that it was bad bite) that might explain his reluctance to intervene in his dog's misbehaviour. It also makes his complete lack of control of his dog absolutely unforgiveable. I now recall meeting a young man with dark hair about three years ago, he had a young dog, very like Monty in tow. It was on Peckham Rye and the guy told me the dog was an American Bulldog cross and that he had a paid ?1000 for it. I wonder if this was the son of the grey haired guy and if it was the same dog? Sarah I would urge you to PM Woody's owner so that she can forward this information to the SNT.

Hi LE, Glad cheese successful. In your shoes, I would not give him the opportunity to go off. Just get a long line and keep him on that and then engage him with a game and obedience. If he likes a ball or a tuggy then get him to do sits and heeling etc.. and alternate your rewards to keep him interested (but he must know the "leave" command). In all honesty nothing will ever quite compete with fox chasing. It's in him, in those terrier genes. But the more he practices it, or is given the opportunity to do so, the more likely he is to try. If you really want to try to crack it then you'll have to introduce a whole new regime that keeps his brain busy and focussed on you. The fox thing will never go completely but by limiting his opportunities to go off and keeping his mind on other stuff, where he can EARN a reward, you can compete. One more thing, eventually the reward every time thing becomes boring and predictable to the dog. That is why you have to eventually reward randomly- it's the same principle as gambling where the dog will keep working to get his reward eventually. If you always, always reward every time, he can think - I'll get my reward later, right now I'd rather go after that fox. Chasing a ball and bringing it back can help to redirect high prey drive in some dogs- but he must be taught to retrieve to you. Try a training class. You may enjoy it. It's impossible to describe all the points here and you're far better learning all this with a trainer who'll make sure you're doing the right stuff according to your dog's temperament and drives. Trying to train on your own can mean you make mistakes that make a problem worse. Hope this is helpful.

emilydrab, Here's to Woody, brave resilient boy.

I also advocate "blame the deed not the breed" so what I'm really doing is associating a dog breed with a type of owner because the bad owner won't control or train their dog, too many bull breed owners fit this bill- terribly unfair to decent bull breed owners, but as Daizie says, I won't take the risk.

Ten, a good age and obviously a local character. Shagging another dog's head could get him into trouble, but from what you say he seems to pick his targets carefully! I just think if we are all as aware as possible and try to anticipate and avoid things can improve. I've said it many times but unless I know the dog and owner really, really well I just avoid bull breeds altogether.

Daizie, At least you recognise there is work to do and that is probably the most important step to good dog ownership. I would heartily recommend that you attend a good training class, for the simple reason that if you are inexperienced and try to train your dog you may, with respect, make mistakes that are difficult to undo. Go with a class that is (APDT recognised). Rob Alleyne is first rate, he operates out of Newcross. He's worth waiting for.

Yes, Staffs can have a very high prey drive- as can many terriers and sighthounds. I think training is the way to go and getting inside your dog's head to try and figure out what motivates him most and then using training and distraction . The only thing is it is almost impossible to recall a highly aroused dog that is on a mission, like after prey; once in that mode the dog is so focussed on one thing that it will not hear you or pay heed. We have to anticipate and stop behaviours becoming entrenched. I wouldn't worry about keeping your dog on a lead for exercise. Using the lead and a long line concentrate on using his brain to your advantage and train, train, train. Yes, it is tiring and it does require dedication and committment and time- but that's dog ownership for you (hope I don't sound patronising, I don't mean to).

Yes, but do remember that any training that gets a dog to use his brain will tire him out far more than a few miles free running. Thus, if I need to go out and don't have much time to give my dog a long walk I'll do 20 minutes scent work- this exhausts him. If your dog is constantly after foxes and he's greedy then scent work is the thing for him. Assuming you have a garden, put your dog into a "sit wait" in the kitchen with the door to the garden open (or whichever room leads to the garden)- if you don't have these basic training commands in place then simply tether him by his lead to something that will hold him in place. Let him smell the treat briefly then, with him tethered go and hide it. At first hide it within his sight a few yards away. Then give a release command "find" and unclip the lead and let him go get the treat, as he makes contact "GOOD FIND" and treat again. Keep doing this but very gradually make the treat further away and harder to find. Eventually you can hide a treat all over the house or in the garden and he'll really work to find it because he is greedy- but all that concentration and focus will wear him out and he'll love this game because it hooks into something he is probably designed to do- what is his breed? Sorry, meant to say that you can quite quickly phase out the treating as reward for finding the treat you have hidden. The game itself becomes self-rewarding and motivating. If your dog has a favourite toy you can also hide that, perhaps swapping a brief game with the toy, like catching or tuggy as reward for finding the toy- this is how many Spaniels are trained to do scent work- it's simply a game to them and finding the drugs etc.. is rewarded with the toy and an opportunity to play.