first mate

KK, Think consultation has been extended by a day- so last day tomorrow. It turns out that many residents in Chesterfield have not received a letter from the council and so were oblivious to the most recent application. Overall this does not look reflect well on the Council.

There is a path around the perimeter edge of Dulwich Park but not the track that goes through it. For many reasons the central track is popular with all park users, the wooded path area that runs parallel to it is also used by pedestrians and cyclists alike. In other parks, like PR, paths into the park are non existant, there is only track. Bawdy Nan,I believe that in Dulwich Park dogs should be kept on a lead on the track. My sympathies are with you in this case, you were showing awareness of your surroundings and the other park user should have done the same. I guess we have all had some near misses. That said I think most of us rub along well and the park is generally a happy place to be.

Mako, it is your assumption that dog owners will only ever need or want to walk on grass, there could be various reasons why the dog owner prefers to stay off grass and walk on a hard surface. I believe that it is reasonable for dog owners to keep dogs on a lead on the track area. I also think it is reasonable for cyclists to adhere to park speed limits and to slow down if other users of the track ( mums and buggies, elderly and disabled, children, joggers, roller skaters, dog walkers etc..) are in clear view. I think this shows consideration on both sides, I don't understand what it is about this that irks you so. Anyhow, I really will sit on my hands after this as we risk going on and on........

Mako, you are missing the point- according to the byelaws dog owners have as much right to use the track, provided their dog is on lead, as any other park user. The question of 'need'as you put it is subjective. I would imagine that children on roller skates and mums pushing buggies may also feel threatened by cyclists speeding excessively..I am sure that feeling is not unique to dog owners. Unless you are suggesting that cyclists give other park users a wider berth? Anyway, we will not agree on this point and I see little to be gained by continuing. Vanessa PMR- I think dog nappies are an utterly bizarre idea, but I feel sure your tongue is firmly in your cheek.

Mako, areas of the park to which dog owners can have access with dogs on lead would be inaccessible without some use of the track, so your point does not stand. Perhaps you are confusing areas of access off lead and areas of access on lead? Dog owners may use the track with dogs on lead,anywhere, any time, they have as much right to be there as any other park user. On a personal note, I have been startled a number of times on the track by cyclists approaching very close from behind, at speed and without any warning, when my dog has been on a short lead. It has felt as though I was missed by inches.

Mako, no dogs should not be allowed to run at strange people at top speed and in the same way, neither should cyclists, especially if they are approaching from behind. Quite apart from that there are speed limits in the park, cyclists could use bells to warn they are approaching and, finally, cyclists and joggers also like to use the perimeter path in the summer months (the area known as the dog walk) and some get annoyed when dogs are there too. I don't think that anyone has suggested that dogs should use the children's playgrounds or football pitches when games are being played or teams are warming up/training.....have they? So not sure what point you are trying to make.

BB I agree, good manners cut both ways. A fair number of cyclists like to power cycle through the parks and I have been startled a number of times walking my dog out of the park. On these occasions the cyclist bears down at top speed, approaching from behind and giving no warning. Many, many times I have stood aside to let parents and toddlers go through park entrances first, without a thank you or acknowledgement of any kind....they are not deliberately rude, they are simply oblivious, the same goes for the power cyclists and for those who walk their dogs without consideration for others. We all need to be more aware of others and that parks are shared spaces. Courtesy and consideration all round is the answer.

Rather odd that only comments in favour appear whereas those against, which we know to have been submitted, are not.

rah,rah,rah oooeerrr missus/Mr.

Mako, a dog that needs to be muzzled can be taught to wear a muzzle but it is not ideal and hardly warranted for the majority of dogs. The citation you give indicates training for dogs that need to be muzzled. Of the people that end up in hospital with a bite we have no way of knowing how many of those have provoked a dog or have done something really stupid like trying to kick a dog away from them because the dog is in their way. I have in depth knowledge of how people can treat dogs and sometimes it is no wonder they get bitten. Yes, you get rogue dogs but just how will you police muzzling when it matters? We already have laws and penalties for dangerous dogs, where muzzling may well be part of sentencing- if the dog survives. The key thing here is to get to the owners, they are the real problem. I had a smile when you said that training a muzzle is as easy as training a dog to have a coat on- I thought about someone I know who had a dog that started to nip at the sight of the coat because the owner had accidently hurt the dog when putting the coat on. The dog is fine now...but these things are not always straighforward. In that very nice article you refer to (it is a good site and I have used it too)you will note that owners are instructed to take their time training the muzzle...you can't just whack it on and problem solved. If you have a dog that is already showing aggressive behaviour to people then getting a muzzle on is even more problematic and will take a lot of time and patience to train. Be under no illusion that dogs can feel very vulnerable when they have a muzzle on. If you then plan to take your person aggressive dog out in a muzzle you can already see what the problem is- they may fear people even more (aggression, other than prey drive, is generally the result of fear). You'll note in that article owners are warned that the dog is not stressed or made to feel any negative associations while being muzzle trained or all the work is undone and the dog may become worse....I have known dogs aggress at handlers to stop a muzzle being put on. Will the ne'er do well owner really take the time to do this training and do it well....doubtful your honour. Ofcourse dogs that are trained from very young may be okay with a muzzle, though it can create problems in terms of socilisation and bite-inhibition- all key doggie learning curves. However, point one is this dog does not need to be muzzled because it is not showing aggressive behaviour, point 2 the owner that trains the muzzle well will be a good owner and a good trainer and it is unlikely they will allow a dog to ever get to the point that it harms a person. Once more, aside from the above, muzzling will not address dogs off lead, dogs charging people, dogs jumping and leaving muddy pawprints on someon's clothing etc.. Muzzling is not a quick'n'easy fix. In the end it is all about responsible ownership/education.

Taper, it is also necessary for owners to be aware of their dog's drives and to train/direct them appropriately. When dogs chase joggers bikes etc... It is almost certainly redirected prey drive, it's a different sort of aggression to that sparked by fear. It's the same instinct that prompts some dogs to chase squirrels or cats and even small dogs. A dog like a bull terrier may have quite high prey drive and that needs to be channelled as a pup with the right training and play. Again, I'd hazard a guess that this dog's owner failed to interact with and train their dog and so the animal finds itself another outlet....chasing joggers. All so unnecessary and avoidable when you pair a dog with the right owner. That dog should never have been let off lead, stupid owner. Grabot, Under sec 3 of the DDA both handler and owner may be liable for a dog that is dangerously out of control in a public place, if a person is injured this becomes an aggravated offence, both categories of offence come under criminal law and carry hefty fines and/or imprisonment. The dog may also be destroyed. Under the Dogs Act 1871 owners can be pursued under civil law for dogs that are ferocious and unmuzzled in a public place. As ever interpretation of the letter of the law is key.

rahrahrah, in principle it's a good idea, it's just a question of who would do the policing? The councils are totally unable to keep on top of responsible breeding practice, despite licensing and inspection mechanisms being in place. The proliferation of back yard breeders who churn out pups for profit are also part of the problem. Look at that guy who has just murdered two women. He was the subject of various investigations and exposes of his puppy farming, but still they could not close him down.

I would agree with that, problem is how to do it.

I have every sympathy for you father in law. However, I still maintain that these kind of incidents are not the norm. Again, the kind of owner that would allow a human aggressive dog to run around off lead is unlikely to muzzle them. The only people who will comply are the majority of responsible dog owners and they own the dogs that do not need to be muzzled. As I said muzzling does not address jumping up or even poor recall.

Mako, fear of the unknown is a normal biological instinct but learning about potentially harmful things enables us to give our fears a rational context, otherwise we would never step outside our home. Mortality stats show that the risk of death from a dog is lower than accidental drowning in the bath, being struck by lightning, being struck by a bicycle or car, or other vehicle, being attacked by a human, not to mention germs, viruses and other hidden nasties. Again, unless the dog has something really wrong with it the culprit is the owner and I can assure you the really bad dog owners will be the ones that never muzzle their dog. A muzzle does nothing to stop a dog jumping up.

I wonder if you also had multiple cold calls by the organisation called ADT, same people, same evening. Odd. How many times do a group of people have to be told you are not interested in their product? Why would they keep calling round on the same night? Why does it need four of them? Does anyone know if ADT are legit?

Not across the research and figures so purely a perception but it seems to me and a few others I have spoken to that the planes are louder or lower or something is different. I am not bothered by plane noise one bit and it does not keep me awake, so wonder how to explain the sense that something has changed. One thing that does get momentraily affected is tv signal, and picture fragments as plane flies over- usually the ones that sound to be loudest????

Sue, As I said before I would like to see compulsory training -owners first, dogs second :)- for those that let their dogs behave inappropriately. I sincerely hope though that you will give us dog owners another chance and not join the ranks of those that would like to see all dogs on leads all the time in any public place. I rather hope that the omwr of the dog who was rude to you might have had a chance to think things through too. You never know she might be a reader here. Just one more point, jumping up is a normal dog behaviour, they want to get close to your face to greet you. Each and every dog owner has to train their dog not to do this. Teenage dogs, like teenage humans, are often the worst offenders and the effects of hormone surges and general joie de vivre can cause a formerly well behaved pup to suddenly go through a kevin stage. I am not for one minute defending this dog's behaviour but you might feel less nervous in future if you see the dog for what it probably is, an OTT, ill-mannered teenager. Believe it or not, it was most likely a really clumsy way of trying to greet you and get you to notice him/her, it almost certainly would not have wanted to harm you. A dog that wanted to harm you would not have stopped. Sometimes standing still, drawing yourself up to your full height, with a very stern face, and putting your hand out in a police-style stop signal at the dog, is enough to stop a dog in its tracks. Finally, dogs that randomly attack people out of the blue in a public place are really rare, by that I mean leaving the safety of their owner and actively going after someone. People mostly get attacked by dogs in public places when they try to intervene in a dog fight and that is because the dogs are in such a high state of arousal that they are not thinking about what they are doing. If dogs are fearful of people to the point they are highly aggressive it would have to be a very odd owner that just let them off in the park to run around- though idiots exist for sure. A dog that is highly fearful of people is more likely to avoid rather than charge you. Most dog on human attacks happen in the home or around the territory of the home, or where a highly fearful dog is appraoched by a human without being able to escape. I only say this to put your mind at rest. Anyway, I hope that helps.

SueOrr0103, Given that you say the dog leapt at you and there was contact then I can understand your fear and your anger. I very much doubt that the dog was behaving agressively, it sounds as though it was rambunctious. If the owner had apologised there and then and immediately put her dog on a lead, something most of us here would have done, I don't suppose you would have felt the need to complain. It stands to reason that if you don't much like dogs and would prefer them to be at a distance from you that you are probably not adept at reading their body language and knowing what is aggressive and what is playful, though very inappropriate. I understand that you felt attacked but hope you might agree that in reality the dog was badly behaved and the owner was inappropriate in her reaction to your fear. Having reread your first post I do see that you state that you had a terrible walk because you feared all the time that a dog would come charging at you. Prior to this you state that usually you don't mind dogs offlead, because they don't come charging at you. It is the case that dogs are allowed to be off the lead in certain sections of the park and although I think it is unlikely that you will be jumped on again that will not assuage your fear around dogs that are not on a lead. I think this is a dilemma for you and I don't think there is an easy solution. That aside, I hope you appreciate that the majority of dog owners are considerate of others but that sometimes dogs and owners can fail to be as well behaved as they should be. There are those in the council who would like to see all dogs on leads all the time and that would not only remove the pleasure of dog ownership but also impact on the welfare of the dogs. In general dogs are good for people and for children and bring many positives to our lives. Only today two toddlers stopped with their parents and asked if they could stroke my dog, which of course I let them do. The delight on the faces of those children was plain to see.

Caz, sorry, where are the signs that clearly say 'dog exercise area'? As you can see the sign that was photographed by the OP is at the beginning of the very track you speak about, and this states that dogs should be kept on a short lead. It is during the late spring and summer months that the joggers begin to appear and some do get upset when dogs are on the track and, as they see it, in their way. In the winter months, dog owners tend to be the most frequent users of the park and therefore make use of much of it because there are not that many other people about, especially when it rains. I like to be in an open space with my dog, with a view of other people and other dogs, this is not always possible in the wooded areas. Additionally, a number of dogs have been startled when joggers/cyclists burst out of the undergrowth and some dogs have reacted out of fear at being startled, also leading to complaints. Other joggers, ones that dislike dogs, have complained about dogs being too near to them and on a few occasions joggers have tried to kick dogs away from them. This is imply to indicate that there is no universal acceptance that dogs should be exercised off lead around what is known, but not officially demarcated, as the dog walk. I think their is confusion about where dogs can go and I don't think that the ill placed signage by the council/parks authorities help.

I've checked and it states that dogs on lead areas are central areas and sports pitches. I would take it that the central area means the gardens, cafe, ponds etc... Clearly sports pitches are defined by chalk markings, so it can be interpreted that any field area outside of the markings is okay. in the winter months and on rainy days when sport is not played I guess the bylaw becomes redundant. there are no designated exercise areas mentioned in the bylaws- only areas where dogs are prohibited and where they should be kept on lead. The notion of the dog walk therefore seems to be erroneous. Aside from that, you may be aware that in the summer months the outer area of the park is used by joggers and some cyclists practising their mountain biking skills, who can become irate at finding dogs off lead. I think there just has to be a little give and take.

Chuff, I am not aware of any regulation that requires owners to keep dogs on lead on the open fields???unless of course people are playing football or similar. The way you seem to describe it the only place one could let a dog off lead would be right around the edge of the park.

Sue, if you were on the circular road when the dog jumped at you then I can understand why you might be hacked off. However, I think your use of the word attacked leaves you open to the charge of exaggeration. I am sure that you can see that if you report this incident to the park in those terms and using that word then it can be used to skew figures on dangerous dogs incidents in the park. I am still curious as to how close the dog got to you when it jumped and did it make contact with you? I have asked you this a few times and you have not answered. All dog owners should teach their dogs as young pups not to jump up at people- that is basic dog obedience. perhaps those with ill-mannered or poorly trained dogs should be sent on a compulsory dog training course.

taper, given that the park should be for all I think it is fair that there are areas where people are asked to keep their dog on a lead. It is common sense really. For instance, I would not let my dog run around offlead where people are playing football or having a picnic (unless I knew he would recall on command every time without fail as well as walk to heel)nor do I let him offlead around the cafe areas, or on the hard paved areas or indeed in and by the children's playground. Once would hope that people don't have to be asked to do this. If everyone adopted these simple and straightforward guidelines I think we would all be a lot happier. I agree that demanding that all dogs be kept on a lead everywhere and at all times is unreasonable and draconian, it would also affect the welfare of the dogs. I think that if people are scared of dogs it would be nicer for them if they could visit areas of the park where they know people will keep their dogs on a lead.

Hearing the kind of rent being asked for it seems that the doors are being opened for more chains/intensive developments.