first mate

P68, Agree with everything you've said, but aren't they supposed to represent us? Not go off in hot-blooded pursuit of an agenda that only they and a few others want? (And yes, I know, it could be a majority do want CPZ, but there is a fair bit of anecdotal evidence to suggest this is not so and therefore, in fairness, it should be put to some kind of public vote/consultation, so we can find out).

BUMP

WHERE TO SIGN THE PETITION only a petition stands any chance of stopping this. It needs to be presented by Friday You can sign our petition to stop the CPZ at all of the following local businesses (they?ve all got copies of the petition sheets) Please, please can as many people try to sign before Thursday, as the petition has to be presented on Friday. So, make sure you stop in for a drink/plant/asprin /newspaper/paintbrush on the way home tonight and SIGN THE PETITION And please encourage as many people to do the same. SARP Newsagents (on corner Grove Vale & Melbourne Grove, near station) The Vale Pub, Grove Value Shauns DIY, Grove Value Dulwich Garden Centre Mark & Son Newsagent, Grove Vale (Next to Shauns DIY) Petals (clothes shop), Melbourne Grove Therapy, Melbourne Grove Angel Upholstery, Melbourne Grove Ronnies Supermarket, East Dulwich Grove Dolphin Dry Cleaners, East Dulwich Grove (corner with Glengarry) Please note - as well as signing the petitions, don't forget to fill in the Southwark Consultation here (click on "We invite you to submit your comments online now"). [www.southwark.gov.uk] (Admin. I know that there is already a thread on this subject, but I feel that (being such an important issue) people should be able to clearly find how they go about signing this petittion.....therefore would apprecite if we can keep this as its own thread

Good grief, I cannot believe what I am reading. What is this "I am not minded" "at this stage" malarkey? What the Councillor means is "no". Given we only have until Friday his stance is disgraceful and frankly stinks. Southwark have concocted a set of rules for this process that suit their own ends. It feels like the whole thing has been done virtually behind closed doors and we the tax payers will be presented with a fait accompli at the end. It more than stinks, it's scary.

James, I'd be concerned about the wording you suggest because say someone answers "no I do not want CPZ in ED" but goes on to answer one of the preference time options (if there were a CPZ would you prefer 8.30-6.30 or or 10-12?) some unscrupulous council types could start including the second answer in percentages of respondents indicating a preference for CPZ at a certain time, thus boosting the appearance of support for CPZ, even though that person has already also ticked the box saying they don't want CPZ. If a person says 'no' why then deal in hypotheticals? from what others have written it seems that the council is already playing fast and loose with the figures. Why does a simple, unambiguous statement along the lines of I do not want CPZ in my street, carry so little weight with you?

BUMP WHERE TO SIGN THE PETITION only a petition stands any chance of stopping this. It needs to be presented by Friday You can sign our petition to stop the CPZ at all of the following local businesses (they?ve all got copies of the petition sheets) Please, please can as many people try to sign before Thursday, as the petition has to be presented on Friday. So, make sure you stop in for a drink/plant/asprin /newspaper/paintbrush on the way home tonight and SIGN THE PETITION And please encourage as many people to do the same. SARP Newsagents (on corner Grove Vale & Melbourne Grove, near station) The Vale Pub, Grove Value Shauns DIY, Grove Value Dulwich Garden Centre Mark & Son Newsagent, Grove Vale (Next to Shauns DIY) Petals (clothes shop), Melbourne Grove Therapy, Melbourne Grove Angel Upholstery, Melbourne Grove Ronnies Supermarket, East Dulwich Grove Dolphin Dry Cleaners, East Dulwich Grove (corner with Glengarry) (Admin. I know that there is already a thread on this subject, but I feel that (being such an important issue) people should be able to clearly find how they go about signing this petittion.....therefore would apprecite if we can keep this as its own thread

James, But then how can you lend your support to such a limited and flawed process. Also why is it that you have only found evidence in favour of CPZ and talk only of 'views' against. Are you saying there is no downside? Surely a proper research process should reveal pros and cons. You only cite pros- or so it seems.

James, Can you please confirm or deny gsirett's calculations on parking spaces that indicate parking spaces will be lost through introduction of CPZ?

James, And who decides if the Southwark council online petition asks the right questions? Because I think many of us do not think that it does. The way you are approaching this does not appear helpful and your patronising manner towards grisett reflects on you rather badly. I think you'll find that many people will think a simple yes or no answer to whether they want CPZ in their street in ED wholly relevant. It is alarming that you seem so dismissive of attempts by the community to stand up to politicians and agendas that are being foisted onto us (council taxpayers) without proper consultation.

WHERE TO SIGN THE PETITION only a petition stands any chance of stopping this. It needs to be presented by Friday You can sign our petition to stop the CPZ at all of the following local businesses (they?ve all got copies of the petiotn sheets) Please, please can as many people try to sign before Thursday, as the petition has to be presented on Friday. So, make sure you stop in for a drink/plant/asprin /newspaper/paintbrush on the way home tonight and SIGN THE PETITION And please encourage as many people to do the same. SARP Newsagents (on corner Grove Vale & Melbourne Grove, near station) The VaLE Pub, Grove Value Shauns DIY, Grove Value Dulwich Garden Centre Mark & Son Newsagent, Grove Vale (Next to Shauns DIY) Petals (clothes shop), Melbourne Grove Therapy, Melbourne Grove Angel Upholstery, Melbourne Grove Ronnies Supermarket, East Dulwich Grove Dolphin Dry Cleaners, East Dulwich Grove (corner with Glengarry)

Brilliant. Well done gsirett. Will sign immediately and tell others to do the same. James, If you made historical efforts to widen the consultation that suggests that you saw a need to do so and rather contradicts the stance you have taken thus far, that wider consulation was not necessary. It must by now be clear to you that there is widespread opposition to CPZ and there is also an overwhelming view that the so-called 'consultation' process is deeply flawed.

Moos, I agree we should all sign street petitions. However, I thought that an online petition, just a simple yes or no thread in response to the question do you want CPZ in your street in ED?- would be a highly visible indicator of strength of feeling. Anyhow, don't want to detract from the main business of getting proper street petitions underway. It is vital, because it seems clear that Barber et al, have already made their minds up and counting on voter lethargy to get their way.

Would it also be possible to have an online petition- here?. Okay it won't be totally kosher, but admin would probably be able to see any suspicious activity (multiple votes from same IP etc..?).

James, if your main concern is really to want to maximise respondents, why is there no proper consultation including the bulk of ED streets? You can't have it both way, if the problem is so bad there will be displacement. You keep suggesting that there is only a need to consult the handful of streets immediately affected while knowing that a much larger area of ED will suffer displacement. If your main concern is to maximize respondents, why have you and your council colleagues buried the poor excuse for a survey on the council website? Why is the survey so deeply flawed and biased? Can you honestly say that the wording and design of that survey is not loaded? Your determination to stick to your pro CPZ agenda is utterly transparent- I don't wish to be insulting, but you do appear to have blinkers on with regard to this one issue. As I have said before, I have now asked loads of local people if they are in favour of CPZ and not one, not one, has said yes.

Asking for the revelries to finish before 12pm, particularly as they go on for many nights, not just one, is hardly the same as demanding a ban on all fun- it's called give and take.

If it was for one night okay, but it isn't. What's more, people don't seem to do their back garden stuff until 12-1 in the morning....why? I can almost guarantee there'll be more tonight too. It is never one night, for years now it goes on night after night. Don't care if it's Diwali, Guy Fawkes or Bill's Big Birthday- if you are going to let off fireworks it'd be real neighbourly to finish by 10-11pm.

northlondoner- hear, hear.

Early hours of the morning, I'm afraid- 'tis very selfish of some.

James, There is good evidence out there to show the snowballing, spreading nature of CPZ' over time. It is disingenuous of you to suggest that only consulting with the handful of streets directly affected at first is fair. You know darn well that you and the pro CPZers just need to get a few streets up and running and the rest will follow suit and there will be little any of us can do to stop it. Because by introducing the CPZ on some streets you will place greater pressure on the surrounding streets.

Curmudgeon, Many thanks for the reply. I am so glad your pup seems to be okay- what breed/type is he? Clearly lady has rehomed dog with best intentions. You are right, Battersea should be first port of call. If dog came from there the owner should be able to go back for some dedicated, tailored behavioural work. Given dog came from Battersea he is almost certainly castrated. Sometimes, even after extensive testing in rescue, certain issues won't come through until a number of months in new home. I would beg the woner to go back to Battersea and ask for help.

The problem is many of the dogs we see are not pure bred staffies, they are cross breeds- so assertions about temperament cannot be made on the basis of breed. Nonetheless, the majority of dogs if well raised are fine. Dogs have been selectively bred over eons to co-exist with man. Obviously if the dog in question had attacked and bitten a child it would probably now be put down, but that is confusing the issue somewhat. The circumstances of what happened when this puppy got a fright are not clear. I do think that we have incredibly high and possibly unrealistic expectations of dog behaviour these days.

The online petition is not easy to find on Southwark website, it is rather well buried. I would not have known about it had it not been for this forum, or about the CPZ consultation. The whole process, as well as the petition, seems to be biased. Again, I have yet to meet a single person in the area that supports CPZ. The consultation process needs to be a lot more transparent and needs to include most of ED, not just the few streets involved. Letters to ED residents please. Otherwise there is no way the 'consultation' can be viewed as democratic.

I think historically people got staffies because, correctly bred, they are exceedingly reliable with children. However, many of the bull breed types we see on the streets today are crossbreeds and so we cannot know that the true staffie temperament has been passed on to them. Unfortunately, since dogs that have the bullbreed look have become status dogs it seems the case that all sorts of breeds are being mixed up- some have mastiff, others different terriers or even sight hound. So, what we are dealing with is to some degree a lottery in terms of characteristics. I have to agree Jeremy that formerly staffies were bred for fighting. Ironically, the need to pull a fighting dog off another fighting dog without the owner getting bitten, is what made them so reliable with people, strange but true. I would say that true staffs can be OTT in their play which can lead to problems with other dogs. They have been bred to look physically assertive with a very upright carriage when meeting other dogs- this can lead to problems. They are not always so great in giving off the right body language or in reading the appeasements signals of other dogs. All of these issues are surmountable with the right training and socialization through puppyhood. On the plus side, they are very bright and very trainable,much more so than many other terrier breeds. This is why you'll so often see them being walked off lead- though I do not approve. I can think of few other terrier breeds that you could do this with so often. They are also immensely forgiving of human abuse- I cannot imagine a Dobermann or Akita taking the kind of punishment that these dogs will soak up. Bottom line is each dog has to be taken on its own merits. Some dogs have a very high prey drive which can find an outlet with other dogs. Intact males may, not always, be more likely to fight with other intact males. Dogs that have themselves been attacked or scared by another dog can develop fear aggression to other dogs. Dogs that have been abused/scared by people can develop fear aggression to people. A dog that shows aggression to another dog is likely to be fine to people and vice versa- aggression is rarely an all encompassing reaction to everything in life.

It would be useful to know the reproductive status of the attacking dog and if the pup attacked is a boy or girl? A 5-6 month male pup will have experienced a hormone surge which gives it 6-7 times the amount of circulating testosterone. This can be like a red rag to many intact adult males and they may 'target' the youngster. To us a 5 month old is a pup, to an adult dog, depending on its hormonal status, it will no longer enjoy so called puppy license. If the staffie is an intact adult male and the pup is a boy, this might be one explanation for a seemingly out of the blue attack. I am not excusing but what can look like a horrific attack may be something a bit different. Was the pup injured and did it have any marks on it? Other equally possible explanations are that the staffie was treating the pup as prey. Staffs are notorious for not being that great with other dogs and if it has not been properly socialized this may be another reason. It is not clear if both the pup and Staff were on a lead? If walking on the pavement were you both on the same side? Or did the staff run out from a house, or was it being walked off lead? How old is the staff, is it neutered? Many of these dogs are in rescue and extremely well meaning people take them on and don't quite realise what they can be like with other dogs. Either way,the owner of this staffie now knows that their dog might repeat this behaviour with other dogs/pups. I would suggest the owner is asked to ensure that their dog is always kept on a lead and away from other dogs until it has attended training classes and can be shown to be safe around other dogs, having been properly assessed by an expert. The Dogs Act of 1871 might allow grounds for civil action if it can be shown that the dog is a repeat offender. See the website for Trevor Cooper who is an expert on dog law. If your pup begins to show fear around other dogs as a result of the experience you might suggest that owner of staffie funds some behavioral work with the pup. Could you give a description of the Staff involved as I recall another EDF poster who had her dog attacked by a staff that ran out of a house- I wonder if it was the same dog?

That's the plan. Once they can get it in on one or two streets they know it'll put pressure on the surrounding areas and so by degrees, the CPZ will spread and spread and the council coffers will swell from the proceeds. It is crystal clear that James Barber is totally in favour of the CPZ, despite not having a handle on the detail, as gmckenney, john at Chener books and others have pointed out so clearly.