first mate

Looks like vet does not figure.

James, what no plan at all? You see that doesn't sound reassuring.

It is really hard to know why resurfacing would take so long. Perhaps Councillor Barber can shed some light on this?

Still, once it is done pedestrians will have a 'nicer' experience, so has to be worth it. I quote JB from an earlier thread last year " The NXR/LL has a number of pedestrian movements but primarily these works are to make this junction more pleasant and a better experience."

ed-pete, Yes I know, I was actually making a wider point about all the various roadworks and mooted road changes in the area, of which Nx road is one and Townley another.I was also pointing out, in response to Foxy, that Townley, is having sewage pipes relaid as part of larger scale works, inferring that laying of similar piping at Nx does not mean sewage is the primary reason for the works...convoluted, I know. I cited the above as I thought Sue had queried changes being made to Townley, but rereading I now see she thought I was talking about changes to Nx. No matter, it is my understanding that Nx pavements onto LL are being built out- the pavement will be considerably wider and the rationale for this was to make it a 'nicer' experience for pedestrians. I also recall talk of bike racks being put there but don't know if that is still on. However, you are right, I have taken the thread off track, so will now shutup!

Hi Sue, From S'warks website, though see other threads where more recent info on changes is cited by Woodwarde What are the proposed changes? ? Removal of existing staggered pedestrian crossings with the implementation of shorter, single movement facilities. ? Introduction of a diagonal pedestrian crossing to link footways adjacent to both schools and cater for an existing pedestrian desire line. ? All pedestrian facilities to operate at the same time to reduce waiting time for pedestrians and improve the efficiency of the junction. ? Cycle pre-signal on Townley Road and Green Dale to allow cycles to enter the junction and undertake turning movements before general traffic. ? New signalised cycle gates on both Townley Road and Green Dale where cyclists are held on a red signal whilst general traffic movements operate. This removes the risk of both left hook and right hook collisions. (Please note that more confident cyclists will still be allowed to use the general traffic lane to traverse the junction from either Townley Road or Green Dale). ? Semi-segregated cycle lane and advanced cycle waiting area on East Dulwich Grove (westbound) to allow cyclists to bypass waiting vehicles and gain priority at the junction. ? Footway buildouts to reduce crossing distances for pedestrians and to visually improve the streetscape. ? New two stage right turn facilities for cyclists to assist right turning movements into either Townley Road or Green Dale from East Dulwich Grove. ? A semi-segregated cycle lane is proposed on Townley Road to allow cyclists to safely pass queuing traffic and access the cycle facilities at the junction. ? A new segregated cycle lane is proposed linking Calton Avenue with Townley Road to allow cyclists to bypass the Calton Avenue / Townley Road junction. ? All existing turning movements at the junction are retained, including for coaches. ? There will be a slight loss of capacity over the existing layout but the junction will continue to operate within acceptable levels of saturation.

You can make as many changes to road speed, junction design etc.. as you like, but until changes are enforced there will be the few or many, who do what is easiest for them. I don't see that loads of speeding cyclists is going to be pleasant or easy, let alone safe. I guess more people, frustrated at car journeys and poor public transport may buy scooters and motorbikes. The 20mph issue remains and even in the centre of ED impatient drivers try to force others over 20mph. Speed/ impatience/ the need to get somewhere fast/ are facts of modern life and I don't think the foregoing, so long as they are unenforced are solutions.

DF, green piping has also been newly laid at Townley, at some point since the works there began. i was told by a guy on site that this is a necessary part if changing the whole junction, so presumably the same applies to Nx. If it is solely about renewing sewage and drainage pipes, then I stand corrected.

The reason for this, and I loosely quote our Councillor, is to make that area a better experience for pedestrians. The other unstated reason seems that it is one small piece in a larger reworking of ED highways, roads and paths, designed to increase cycling, reduce parking and reduce car ownership/use. Therefore you have the deeply unpopular Townley redesign, attempts to make Melbourne a closed street and creation of restricted parking in places where there was none. It has been noted that the timing of this attempt to radically change our lives has fallen at a similar time that at least two and possibly 3 major building projects( the two new schools and M&S) are soon to start, and which will probably create even more obstruction and chaos, since we know how little oversight there is of developers and builders in the borough. I walked right past Townley on Friday at around 11am expecting to see workmen scurrying around, but no, a few ambled aimlessly while another hovered around a stationary small digger, no work going on. I see the boards state no expectation of completion before end of month. It all feels rather perverse and the only person who seems the least bit concerned is an ex councillor, our current rep seems to withdrawn from discussion.

Yes, me too. Think it may be a pointed wind up.

Part of me wonders if this is a windup, designed to make dog owners worried about going to the park? I am hoping the OP comes back on to clarify.

This needs to be reported to park authorities and police. Local vets should be warned and if any truth in the matter the type of poison located and identified asap. How awful.

Rch, Yes it does clearly state in the PA that tree is protected but then 'accidents' happen, don't they. Great idea about the petition for joined up thinking on traffic and roads, we do need to get a handle in this. MT, You've got me. I read something somewhere about work beginning on M&S but cannot think where. James Barber will know.

Rch, Yes, the piecemeal nature of all this is likely, in my humble opinion, to cause chaos before very long. I cannot decide if this is accident or design. I also fear for the mature tree outside the police station. All it would take is slip of some piece of machinery.

I see James has announced in another section that Harris Primary (old police station) is to start building/demolition early August, so I am wondering if he knows yet what sort of disruption this is likely to bring to that part of LL and surrounding streets? There are extensive roadworks at the junction of Nx and of course all the stuff at Townley etc.. The extensive M&S build right opposite Nx will also begin soon. Townley is to be closed until end August/ Sept and guys on site inferred could be much longer. How interesting that all these things are to 'kick off' at round about the same time??? It might make sense to stagger them to minimise disruption?

So key questions ducked again, really disappointing. I have no faith in this process now. Any feasibility study will result in a 'consultation' where the 'debate' will happen and where ' voices' will be heard but we all now know that these consultations are just a fig leaf. As I have said before, the councillors representing us are as one on this; dissenting voices will be screened out by massage of stats and 'evidence'. Councillors can also appear to support voices of protest while using superior knowledge of the byzantine twists and turns of council process to ensure things get through. Sorry to seem so darn cynical but this is exasperating.

James, you keep answering on the various issues bit by bit, and it is easy to figure the advantage of pursuing the debate in this manner, but what remains unanswered is the big picture? How are all these changes going to impact on traffic flow and congestion along LL and various side streets? Can you say that flow and congestion will be markedly improved overall?

Actually, I don't think it is led by nimbyism, i think that nimbyism is carefully cultivated by Councillors keen to find any means of support for their anti- car pro cycling agenda and vision. After all, it seems the Melbourne call for road closure was led by a councillor. The apparent tinkering here and there is actually part of a larger vision that is not admitted to. There is no real evidence to support their idea that their vision will improve lives, in their arrogance they will simply impose it and hope it all turns out as they hope. Locals that do suffer in the process are to be viewed as a sort of collateral damage, necessary to secure the greater "good". Don't forget there is something about the temperament of those drawn to politics that involves an almost pathological self belief and sense of being right; the pursuit of a dream or ambition is unlikely to be derailed by dissenters in the electoral ranks, especially so soon after an election. This seems to be evidenced by the inability of those dissenting voices to properly be heard or represented. Those who are meant to represent us have a ready plan and that will be implemented by fair means or foul, whether we like it or not.

Hi James, Thanks for all that but just to return to my central question, are you saying there will be no effect on traffic flow and journey times by car or by bus along Lordship Lane as the result of all the changes (Townley,Nx,20mph,Melbourne, major builds- at M&S and Harris/police station)? Surely such extensive change and expenditure should result in improvements for the bulk of residents? Will this be the case- journey times via motor transport being crucial to most?

James, other than the occasional petrol head I think everyone would put people before cars, it is an empty phrase and does not mean much at all. I wanted to know how you see all these different schemes impacting on traffic and parking along ldship lane and the side streets? For those locals using cars or buses will there be fewer road traffic queues or not? Will journey times improve or not? Will there be fewer parking spaces for local residents throughout the day or not? We know that you cannot look at streets in isolation since whatever happens on one tends to affect the next, so as our locally elected councillor can you please give an overview of how you expect things to improve for the majority of locals, most of whom do not cycle?

XIX, Precisely. I am sure James knows this but nothing, absolutely nothing must be allowed to obstruct the anti car/ cycling agenda, which both he and Labour support. All very well if, like the bulk of Councillors, you are young, fit and healthy, then this cycling utopia looks marvellous, but for the rest.... I am also intrigued by James' assertion to P68 that more people on Ashbourne and Chesterfield voted for closure than did residents on Melbourne. When was that then? And can we see the evidence please? I have to add that although the Harris build will be finite, if, as James suggests, closure of Melbourne siphons more traffic onto Lordship it sounds potentially chaotic. Unless he can guarantee here and now that pavements will not be closed and building vehicles lined up along the Lane, during the Harris build? Additionally, won't all the work on Townley place more pressure on LL? Won't the building out of pavements on Nx squeeze traffic further? I can see a situation where we'll have queues of bumper to bumper irate drivers and cyclists manically weaving in and out. Seriously you cannot do studies on individual junctions/roads and use these as evidence to prop up funding requests. Where is the ED traffic overview, how will all these different things impact the area as a whole? Who is/has looked at that...anyone? Just as an aside, since 20mph I think drivers are speeding even more, it's almost might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb. We all know the hot weather brings out madness in some but I've seen crazy driving and cycling in the last week. I'm not sure this insidious tactic of keep turning up the pressure on car drivers in the hope they'll all disappear is working.

rch Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I've had a quick look... it looks like this > Traffic Order mainly addresses the permanent > parking restrictions (i.e., double yellow lines > and School Keep Clear markers) along the build > outs of all four arms of the junction redesign, > which makes me think that the main junction > redesign Traffic Order has already been publicised > and approved. > > I'll try to have a better look later when I have > more time and post an update. > > FYI, I've been trying to save a tree on Green Dale > that has had its roots exposed during the cycle > lane prep work, but I think the poor thing is > going to die. How utterly disgraceful and ironic, given the alleged eco credentials of the cycle lane. I hope the relevant Councillor is alerted and fines the contractors (this would cover the cost of your good work and time, RCH and others, in trying to save the tree, as well of course as replacing the tree- if it dies).

James Barber Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Hi first mate, > The junction of Lordship Lane with North Cross > Road is not reducing parking. The parking place > just before the bus stop there - that meant buses > couldn't get near the pavement reliably I'm told > are being relocated by changing other lines. > Not sure how that see's a dramatic reduction in > parking across the shop? > > M&S will put significantly more pressure on the > area. Not much we can do about that now - we > objected to the planning permission on the basis > of parking but they got their planning > permission. > > Harris school would tend to put pressure on an > area that I've never had casework about parking > stress. Doesn't guarantee anything but it gives me > hope abut that building not causing parking > problems. James, So you seem to agree that that M&S will increase parking. How do you think closing Melbourne to traffic plus increased pressure on Chesterfield and other streets around Melbourne Grove will play out? Do remember also the holdups caused daily by the car wash and retail delivery juggernauts (soon to be stepped up under M&S)? Hard to see how a massive building project like Harris will not impact on both traffic and parking, given say the current ridiculous situation on Upland Road, where large sections of the pavement have been taken over by builders. Surely this new building project will be even larger? I know you want to support local residents on Melbourne but you represent all of us locals so I am interested to know how you see the big picture developing re traffic management across the area, as well as parking?

What is odder is that our local councillor supports this, knowing, one imagines, the inevitable knock on effect on surrounding streets- what then, more road closures?

Agree this is a put up job. As a local I find it odd that such an expensive and suddenly high profile project has been so low profile until now. I recall when certain councillors were keen to drive through CPZ they made much of it all being about providing support to a local street and residents, claiming no other agenda, they were simply doing what the residents wanted. This current scheme just seems a new chapter in the wider agenda to get cars out of ED and force us to use bikes, by whatever means. Again; Townley, introduction of restricted parking throughout ED, building out pavements on Lordship Lane, talk of closing off streets, all at a time when three major developments have been given the thumbs up. Councillors that fought hard for CPZ and lost will seize these new opportunities to increase pressure on car users and in this, they are seemingly at one with Southwark Labour.