benmorg

Vigilantism going horribly wrong for the Asian communities in Birmingham according to Channel 4 News.

Just an idea, but maybe ED residents could put their Blackberries to work and set up a private social network for use by neighbourhood watch lookouts or anyone else who wants to join. If anyone using the network sees hoodie gangs on their street or witnesses criminal behaviour, they could send a message to the network so the community is instantly aware of the threat, whether people are in the pub or at home. At least people could then take steps to protect themselves and/or respond if they feel that is sensible.

Damian H Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I believe that soltions have been put forward on > the other thread on his subject but let me > elaborate. Should the situation kick off again > and it lok like the police will not be ableto > meanngfully respond, the suggestion is that those > who agree to be involved establish some sort of > picket or watch at the periphery of ED. This > could be arranged on a rota basis. Exchanging > phone numbers and perhaps a couple of these people > having cars woud enable some sort of oommunication > and mobility. Any suspicious looking individuals > coming into ED could be politely approached and > asked wher they are going and what their > intentions are. Th very fact that a group of > people are aware of their presence, are observing > them and are ready to challenge them might well > have a considerable deterrent effect on its own. > If someone brought along a video camera and was > filming the entire mater and others were taking > photos etc, that would be a further deterent as > these little toads are creatures of anonymity. > These people are after easy pickings and expect > zero or minimal resistance. > > Do you really think they put in the windows of a > shop and try to make off with goods if there are a > dozen or so determined people standing there and > saying that they will actively prevent that? > > It is exactly the sort of community action tactics > that worked in some Turkish areas of London and > that the Sikh community used near Ealing to > protect their temples. It has also been used with > great effect in Northern Ireland. It is also the > type of community initiative that completely > cleared up the Balsall Heath red light district in > Birmingham. So if a gang of 50 hoodies come running up Peckham Rye to ED, there will only be one or two people standing on the corner to repel them? Sorry, that's not going to make a difference. You need to match the numbers. Your going to need thousands of volunteers permanently stationed around ED.

Damian H Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I am not talking retrospectively, KK, as I did > very much the same as you did. I am taking about > what could be done going forward. There is a > thread on here proposing some sort of co-ordinated > stand should the situation deteriorate again and, > frankly, some of the responses on it have ben > pretty pathetic. > > I think you did the right thing on your own by ot > tackling anyone and that is exactly why some sort > of group presence would be desirable. I am > objecting to those who are greeting the proposed > future possibilities of community resolve on the > other thread with insipid, wishy-washy > objections. > > I also think it is very weak to think that it is > some sort of triumphant stand or gesture of > defance to wait until the trouble is over, go out > and have a drink or a meal and think that is some > powerful declaration of defiance. > > The thugs must be having a right old chuckle. > They go out and riot, loot shops in their own area > and then put their feet up (wearing the trainers > they have pinched from Footlocker) to watch dvds > on their newly stolen wide-screen TVs. Then they > watch while a bunch of middle-class do-gooders > from East Dulwich come down and clear up their > mess. If any of them bother reading this forum I > doubt they wll take it as to much of an affront or > challenge to their criminal activities to know > that we are deiantly eating fish and chips or > enjoying a 'there'll always be an England' style > drink on LL, when they know full well that all the > drinkers and diners would scurry off home the > moment a handful of them marched up LL with > scarves over their faces. What's your take on the English Defence League - good or bad?

Damian H Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > No I didn't rush out with a baseball bat and I am > not suggesting that anyone does something so > crude. However, now that I have had time to be > aware of and digest what has happened, I think I > am suggesting something a little more robust than > 'let's sweep up the mess and agree to have a pint > and a curry in a local hostelry to show our > support'. That latter point is nothing more than > making some sort of pseudo-triumph out of > exercising the right to do what we have done > before with impunity. I am sure that the thugs > responsible for all this are laughing even more > that many of the good people of ED actually crept > sheep-like down to Peckham to clean up the mess > created by these hoods in their own neighbourhood! > How much more of this masochism do we have to > watch until someone says enough? > > I think that some of the responses to what has > gone on are really lilly-livered, to be honest, > and remind me of the United People's Front of > Judea (or was it the Judean United People's Front) > in the Life of Brian trying to give the impression > of taking action by passing meaningless > resolutions instead of doing anything gutsy. > > I make no apology for wha I suggest and the > comments I have made and if some people thing I am > being harsh then so be it. I doubt the baby steps > you suggest would actually go anywhere if we start > with something as 'radical' as 'let's defy the > thugs by having a drink or a meal on LL when they > aren't around.' Have you thought through how the vigilante system will work? Will a gang of men with baseball bats wander round the street looking for hoodies? Or simply stand outside shops on Lordship Lane? What happens when the hoodies turn up? If they run off, will you chase them waving the baseball bats. What happens if they fight or someone gets clobbered with a baseball bat and his mates then retaliate? It's all very well fantasizing about some Magnificent Seven style battle in which the good guys all win, but the reality is likely to be a chaotic and unpredictable mess that doesn't work out quite how you'd planned.

They're in clapham now, triggering the usual hysterical tweets about things "kicking off", i.e. nothing happening.

The dotted line definitely starts far too late - should be moved back another 30-40 feet at least. I think it's OK to switch lane where you think the dotted line should really begin, or if you go up the bus lane from the bottom then drive slowly and let people pull in front of you.

I know Birmingham isn't ED, but the situation that's developing from the attack on vigilantes is relevant. They now have a growing feud between Asians and Afro Caribbeans. I'm sure the English Defence League will be rubbing their hands with glee.

thecaptain Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > benmorg, I haven't lost my temper, I'm just > exasperated by your response - Londoners lives > have been forever changed by this with business's > and people's livelyhoods destroyed forever, yet > you still have this 'I'm alright jack' mentality, > my suggestion of fighting fire with fire is not > for myself, but, for these self same people.... > > This of course, is your opinion and I respect > that. What did I say that suggested the "I'm alright Jack" mentality? Fighting fire with fire.... In what way is a gang of angry vigilantes with baseball bats, intent on teaching hoodies a lesson, different from a gang of angry hoodies intent on teaching the police a lesson? Another problem with resorting to vigilantism is that they'll soon be infiltrated by people with a far-right agenda, who aren't representative of ED residents.

thecaptain Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Ok benmorg, I'll give them a bunch of flowers > instead and we'll see how that works whilst > they're smashing the place up and thieving... Or you could just pick a fight on an internet forum, if you're unable to keep your cool.

thecaptain Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > benmorg, i think your courage muscle has gone. Of > course its a risk but I'm just not having it > anymore... If you think you can handle a baseball bat without losing your temper and doing something stupid, then go for it. Anyone who feels motivated by anger or aggression to join a gang of vigitantes is, in my opinion, totally inappropriate for the job.

Birmingham riots: three men killed 'protecting homes': http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8693095/Birmingham-riots-three-men-killed-protecting-homes.html

I think plastic bullets and careful intelligence gathering by the police will ultimately cripple the gangs. In a way, I'm glad things have come to a head. They've been running riot for years and the police have been far too soft on them. Now serious money will be thrown at the problem and probably some of the anti-terrorist teams will turn their attention to it. It's just a matter of time before the ringleaders are tracked down, provided their encrypted message systems can be cracked. Also, I don't think people should get too anxious about threats to members of the public or residential property. The gangs are clearly targetting the police and shops they can loot. They don't seem to have major grievances against the public - yet.

Green Goose Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > benmorg Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > I think vigilantes could make the situation > much > > worse by dragging communities into feuds and > > victimising people for looking "suspicious". > The > > last thing we want is mob rule. Better to stay > out > > of the way and help the police do their job. > > benmorg Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > I think vigilantes could make the situation much > > > worse by dragging communities into feuds and > > victimising people for looking "suspicious". The > > > last thing we want is mob rule. Better to stay > out > > of the way and help the police do their job. > > What a load of liberal tosh. > > In these situations the police cannot be > everywhere so leaving it just to the police is > abdicating one's responsibility as contributing > member of society. It is simply whimping out! > > Self-reliance and cooperation with fellow members > of the local community is the way to beat this. > Taking a tough stance together and resisting these > thugs is the way to go. > > Bring back the birch and public humiliation for > these wanton looters and arsonists. > > > GG Since you also PM'd this to me, I'll paste my reply here for all to see. Hi GG, I understand the sentiment. I'm sure everyone has fantasized about meting out a bit of zero tolerance. But you have to look through the red mist and think about where such actions would lead to. There are good reasons the police need a lot of training as the consequences of making mistakes through rough justice are very serious. We don't want London to turn into another Belfast.

paulsimon Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > We need an independent force here to protect it > ourselves but if we all joined as an SPO we would > be drafted in to help incidents elsewhere whereas > we want to monitor the area ourselves without the > red tape of being controlled by the police > authorities and government who spend their time in > meetings with so called community groups.The > Turkish people saved areas in N London not the > police. I was a member of a group who protected > farms in S Africa who could not rely on the > authorities against feral looters. "without the red tape" - i.e. take the law into our own hands. I don't think that's a good idea. Things are nowhere near as bad as South Africa, nobody in London has razor wire around their mansions or private security guards with guns. And I don't think the Turkish mafia are particularly deserving of admiration, given that they collect protection money from a lot of businesses in NE London and control London's heroin trade.

Jeremy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > It's all over. The kids have had their fun, and > upgraded their trainers. They've stocked up on > xbox games. Now the police have gathered ranks, > they've called it quits. > > Nothing further to see here. I don't think so. The riots were highly organised by gang "olders" and last night's peace across London was probably planned.

I think vigilantes could make the situation much worse by dragging communities into feuds and victimising people for looking "suspicious". The last thing we want is mob rule. Better to stay out of the way and help the police do their job.

peterstorm1985 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Benmorg: > From Southern website "The high volume of > passengers who use our trains during the peak > times means that we cannot accommodate ordinary > cycles on Southern services at these times. This > means on trains travelling towards either London > or Brighton and due to arrive between 07:00 and > 10:00 and trains leaving either London or Brighton > between 16:00 and 19:00." > So if you leave after 1900 hours then you're OK. Thanks. In the end I cycled, using the main roads where there are loads of police. No hoodies anywhere tonight. Their "olders" have clearly been busy with the Blackberries, telling them to lie low while the police are everywhere.

Anyone know if there are any grocery shops on LL that aren't closed?

Could someone tell me when bikes are banned from trains between London Bridge and East Dulwich? I don't want to cycle home tonight - will try and take my bike on the train. thanks

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8687177/London-riots-live.html

The Minkey Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- Not before watching 3 van loads of scarved and hoodied > guys empty out at the bottom of Jerningham Rd. > I suspect last night's event were planned and organised to a significant extent. I don't think it was copycat violence - looks networked.

Big wake up call for the authorities, who've neglected London's gangland culture and let the problem fester. Now they will hopefully grab the bull by the horns, but the government will have to throw money at the problem.

richardbach Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > you are not the target but eh police are Is that your opinion or do you have reason to believe there was an organised campaign to target the police?

muffins78 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Would they go near residential places? No. There's a definite pattern to the attacks, and residential areas haven't been targeted.