laincoubert

The FB have assured London that they have cover in place to adequately protect London. If thats the case, then let the FFs strike and protest, its them losing the money and if there is no additional risk to London then thats just them suffering right! Mr Coleman has promised this is the case, all of london is safe, and all you anti FF people who believe everything he says must accept this too!! Just bear in mind they only have a limited window (until november 19th) because if the management do not agree to any of their proposals by then, they either go on the dole or they sign contracts they are opposed to. I.e they lose either way!! They have to use everything they got and use it now in their fight. and this is a dirty and underhand fight on both sides! Fire brigade has a obligation to protect london. If they believed that they were exposing london to any additional risk, then Coleman would certainly do the responsible thing and remove the threat of dismissal, return to negotiations and strike is over!!!! New shifts will be negotiated and we can all move on to the next drama and forget about the Firefighters and their contracts

Because they have a union and a legally binding contract in place already they think their special and better than other working class people? Or Because their chief and political masters have succeeded in achieving very highly paid positions of authority that everything they do and say is true and only done for the good of the tax paying public? Should we take away their contracts and their unions just to prove that they are no different to anyone else. Maybe we could return Europe to the feudal system and make them all serfs? Perhaps I am just tired and missing your point.

Marmora man please. They are not refusing to change their working practises or their roles or fighting change for the sake of it. They merely want to negotiate s settlement that isn't too detrimental too them. They can't do that now cause of the 188 and come November 25th if management refuse doggedly to accept the proposed changes that the union has offered then they will have new contracts anyway or be on the dole depending upon their personal circumstances. I think that making false and hugely innaccurate statements against them is persecution isnt it. And that's what you are doing in order to discredit them and blame them for causing this dispute despite the raft of contrary information that this thread contains. When government have finished with the brigade, they will use this draconian law to eliminate bargaining power from police, nurses teachers and all civil servants too. Except themselves!! Why would you deny a group of people the right to negotiate their own contract?

Point understood regarding how this could be interpreted, there is very little PR which will actually benefit the striking FFs regardless how they present it. As for this incident, the loft and roof is totally destroyed. LFB crews would have entered and tackled the fire offensively, i.e. by entering the roof space and hitting the seat of the fire as it was developing. Assett co crews only tackled from the outside. I.e. dumping thousends of litres of water up and on to the roof drowing the fire. This has two consequences firstly it takes significantly longer to extinguish thus much more fire damage occurs. Secondly, the thousends of litres of water will travel through the house destroying furniture and fixtures and floors right through the property. The curtains may have survived, but I doubt anything else below the fire will be fit for use ever again. Good firefighting uses a minimum amount of water to extinguish, if done perfectly without any surplas water damaging the property below. Secondly LFB crews with additional man power that should have been there to assist will have salvage crews in the property below the fire level using plastic sheeting and other tools to capture excess water and minimise additional damage caused by the firefighting. The two assett co crews would not have had sufficient personnel to do this, and were not permitted to enter the property anyway until they had washed it away from the outside first. So yes this is tragic and will feel like "the end of the world" to the home owner regardless of how well insured they are. And the LFB will be paying a large contribution to then insurer for additional damage that was caused by the assett co crews not dealing with it correctly by entering and attacking the seat of the fire close up and using too much water. This would not have happened if the LFB resumed fair negotiations and removed the 188 notice to terminate FF contracts. Shame this publicity probably serves to damage the FFs case further

I have heard rumour (and today has been filled with all sorts of outrageous rumour from both sides) that a flat in south london was on fire and not dealt with adequately by the private fire force and as a result the fire got bigger and resulted in several flats and the entire roof being destroyed. Without doubt this is terrible news for the residents who undeservedly have been let down catastrophically. I lost my home to a fire and this is obviously a terrible and sad event. But who let them down?????? Not Asset co. They are in the business of making money and they got the chance to profit from the 12 million Mr Dobson wanted to spend on a reserve force and they have understandably done it as cheaply as possible in order to maximise their share holder gains. They were never going to have anything more than a mickey mouse rag tag bunch with very limited capability. So its the firefighters or the management. I know this will divide opinion, but for me responsibility lies solely with the management. They merely needed to lift the section 188 industrial relations notice and resume fair negotiations with the unions and the strike would have been averted. The strike only took place because with the deadline looming in november, there is a very limited window remaining for FFs to oppose the new contracts. Once november 25th is upon them, they will be left with one choice, sign or be sacked. Lifting the 188 will remove the excessive pressure from the management and allow fair negotiations to resume and a genuinely worthwhile settlement to be agreed which benefits Londoners without changes which are too detrimental to FFs lives. They know changes are inevitable, but they deserve the opportunity to limit the damage to their personal lives, and the 188 deadline is adding unnecessary pressure for them to take this extreme action now which benefits no one. We can all only hope that they will see the sense and remove this pressure before the next strike date and enter into a meaningful consultation.

They wish there was another way too. But the FFs only had two options on their voting paper, Yes or No. There was no mechanism to say "we dont want the new contracts and we dont want to strike either, can we vote for more discussions and consultation with us on finding an amicable solution" Their only remaining power once presented with a strike ballet was a yes vote. If they had voted No, that would have been acceptance of the new contracts. A FF i have spoken with recently rather naively believed that a Yes vote wouldnt lead to immediate strike action. He had expected that giving the union bosses a mandate to srike with the yes vote would have given them more bargaining leverage in the negotiations and the commencement of strike action would have been a last resort used in the more distant future. He and some of his colleagues are upset that the mandate to strike was not used as a tool for a longer time before the strike dates being decided upon, these were I understand revealed very shortly after the vote results were counted. I have heard that a large number of officers have now quit the union and will be working on the strike days. FFs however are in a tricky position, they will be under pressure not to break ranks and ignore the union directives. A rock and a hard place for them. Worse still is the possible eventualities on strike days, again lose lose for FFs: If there few fires and those that occur are easily dealt with by assett co, this will strengthen the position of the employers who will have demonstrated that their contingency force is as goood as the real thing and that they can cope just fine with these guys during walkouts If there is one or more major incidents which they fail to cope with adequately, the finger will be pointed firmly at the FFs for irresponsibly abandoning their duties to protect the public against these disasters. Both possibilities are a PR nightmare for FFs. But they will be entrenched by the union already and will sadly no doubt follow directives for now. On the positive side, the financial pressures of not being paid will gradually crack them all and pretty soon I reckon forcing them back to work! they will probably be happy to sign anything just to be able to pay the bill and get their wages coming in again. So yes strikes are bad news for everyone and will not achieve them their desired outcomes. They have put their faith in their unions who will in the end, inadvertantly let them down. However, in my opinion they are only having to put their faith in the unions because their employer has already let them down by not negotiating these changes and finding enough common ground to reach agreement without resorting to section 188. Final point, I wonder how long the bad feeling between FFs and management will last following this dispute, it will leave a bitter taste in the mouths of both sides and morale will be rock bottom. You do not need to be sigmund freud to know that an unhappy workforce who resent their employers and the conditions under which they work will at best be unenthusiastic at worst. Well good morale must be one of the best ways to maximise efficiency of a workforce

Mr Bish bash bosh, you have lost me a little. Perhaps you have mistaken me for an LFB employee which I am not. I have friends who are however and they will no doubt enlighten me as to the failings you have mentioned and how relevant they are. As a member of the public, and therefore paying customer of all emergency services, I am not in a position to get into the nitty gritty of what these people do/dont do correctly every day. My viewpoint is simply that I trust and respect the FFs I have spoken to a whole lot more than I trust and respect the politicians who have their websites and pie charts to prove their case. I shall move my interests for now to todays announcements from parliament and how they will affect my life. But will be interested to see how this dispute develops, and to discover what new lows both sides will stoop to in order to score points over the other.

"Not quite true Iain. Don't you remember management provided detailed explanations, even in power point format, for the change in start and finish time. The one showed the increased availability of hours for productive work and, oh, that graph that showed the call peak around the current change of shift time when appliances are more likely to be off the run. You could always run a report query in your station diary to see your call rate graph." Not true.....I cannot run a query report in anybody's diary. I can see the figures presented by the LFB, I can speak to serving FFs and I can take them both with a pinch of salt. > By the way the new > contract will double the number of evenings you > work and not benefit anyone at all........ "What about the two evenings gained from the later night shift start time?" Do you really think that starting a 12 hour night shift at 2000 constitutes as gaining an evening??? My wife comes home from her job at around 19:00. At nights when I go the gym at about 20:00 i do not see her at all until bed time. Thats my choice to go gym at 20:00, (and avoiding the wife is just one of the benefits). But to routinely lose 4 nights a week in a job which covers weekends and public holidays is obviously unattractive and going to put a massive strain of their family lives. For me an evening is roughly 19:00 until about 22:00. It is the best time of the day for unwinding, enjoying a good bottle of cabernet, and socialising with my family and friends. I work mon-fri 0800-1600. I get my evenings everyday of the week and I wouldnt give these up for anyone. If FFs are unhappy about giving up this most valuable time then Im not surprised.

"Yes, we are prepared for the possibility that we might actually burn to death at some point in our career, but as compensation it would nice to have a more appealing shift pattern." ""Is that really so bad?!"" No its not, honesty almost always helps. I think they are so desperate to resist the changes, for many reasons including that above, but are so conerned about public opinion, that they are denying this very obvious, and valid reason to keep their current contracts and appealing to safety concerns which are probably an also true but secondary factor to them. Likewise, the employers are desperate to win the PR war too, they have their stats and studies published to prove their case, but as a tax paying customer of the service, the one thing the employers are in denial about which might sway me is cuts. The bosses are venhemently denying this will lead to cuts, (coleman made a cast iron guarantee to this effect on the radio). They argue for efficiency, but not cuts (budgetary savings). In todays situation,the promise of cuts and savings will be more appealing to the public than these efficiencies. Efficiencies usually do mean cuts, but in the case of the LFB what they are promising is merely for FFs to do more training and more fire safety work in the day, which they could already do in their longer night shifts, i do not see the difference. I rather suspect then both sides are lying, or hiding their true agendas. FF's dont want to lose the system which presumably they have all built their lives around and consider this one of the few perks of the job. Coleman knows that a huge budgetary cut will be coming, announced later today no doubt, and is preparing a structure which will facilitate this. I see no benefit to me at present for the changes, and until these are presented to me in a genuine and convincing way, I will continue to support the FF struggle. I will be supporting all the future struggles of police, NHS and other essential frontline sevices in the firing line, the people in these careers are essential to our welfare and directly affect us all at some stage in our lives yet they do not get rewarded with the many benefits that private sector careers offer

I'm not a doctor or a shift worker. I sleep well 6-7 hours a night but I still try to nick a couple more hours in the afternoon too. All I know is I'm fit and healthy but I wouldn't cope working during the night no matter how much time I gave myself to recover in the day. Guess I'm not tough enough to be a ff or a nurse!

http://www.nursingtimes.net/whats-new-in-nursing/night-shift-nurses-must-be-allowed-to-take-naps/1737208.article I stand corrected. Yet doctors do? Seems a bit unfair. Doesn't Change the fact that sleep deprivation is bad. I wouldn't want a tired fireman driving their lorry any more than a tired nurse bandaging my arm or even a tired bin man collecting my refuse.

I rather suspect that the 12 hours between shifts will allow for more time to window clean than the current 9. Though family friendly, finishing at 2000, i think not. Especially as most of them are priced well out of london homes. On the up side, perhaps a good use of the shortened 12 hour night shift can mean the end of them getting some sleep between emergency calls, I propose they do their fitness training at midnight in order to free up the important fire safety time in the afternoon, they shouldnt be doing fitness training during rush hour anyway, how preposterous! We will squeeze a bit more out of them that way. And luckily for us, the paying public, as their 15 ton HGV appliances are exempt from european tacograph laws, we dont even need to let their drivers off the hook. They can darn well drive with the window open if they feel tired on their way to fires! I dont have any "lies, damned lies and statistics" from either organisation unfortunately, but stats collated and presented by the employers pursuing a case for change will inevitably support their point of view. Here I go again accusing the establishment of lying, silly me! Did you know there arent actually any WMDs hidden in Iraq? Who would have thought that possible!!!! Actually seriously, ffs are still going to sleep on duty at night at every opportunity they get, good luck to them. JThey will sleep just like any night worker such as nurses, security personal, doctors, and their control officers too who take turns to sleep although that is done on a strict rota basis. The the ability to function at night without sleep is not a luxury to removed be the authorities via a section 188, it is nature and necessary. Once in my youth I worked all night at a parcel distribution centre, I didnt sleep and it was possibly the worst night of my life. I have the utmost sympathy for night factory workers, but because they are stretched to their physical limits in order to shuffle parcels all night doesnt mean its sensble to do the same with every other shift working profession. And I suspect far from being a cushy number sleeping on station, countless weekends away from family and friends must take its toll also. I know, they should get another job if they dont like it. Make way for someone who does!! I expect the new scab workforce are wet with excitement about getting to work nights and weekends soon. For my part I have merely spoken to FFs who disagrre with the stats, though i suppose they inevitably would too in order to support their defence of the current shift or at least the alternative proposals presented by their union. I know who I trust more though. If you believe changing shift at 0900 seems impractical then perhaps you didnt understand my explanation or simply think that I am lying. However to reiterate the transition from one watch to the next is genuinely seemless however one hour after change over staff shortages occur and cause disruption. These shortages will occur at 0900 on the proposed system. Though forgive me for repeating myself, I am also lead to understand 0900 doesnt in reality represent any sort of peak in expected FF demand anyway so the whole point is moot anyway.

The thing is Mr Hueguenot, despite the commendable objective logic you are applying, much of which I do nod in agreement with; your mains assertations are still based on trusting the management and their reasoning/figures etc. One point would be that FFs currently change shift at 0900 and 1800. the busiest times of the day!! Firstly busiest for who? The FF's I know, and I have spoken to several now, swear blind (i do not know whether statistics are availabale or could be trusted depending upon their source) that they are no more likely to pick up a call around these times than at any other time. Yes they acknowledge nights are generally quieter, while hot dry summer afternoons tend to lead to more fires and cold icy nights more car accidents. But the impression that I get is that there are no reliable patterns or trends which their emergency calls follow. The police may know that last orders on a firday night means civil disturbance in town centres, but the dodgy electrics which finally smoulder, the lift which just stops working, the old lady who collapses behind a door. There are no patterns for these events! So again Im lead to be suspicious as to the management again, citing a reason which is arguably very flawed. But there is more.... Currently FFs begin duty at 0900. There is no break in service at 0900. The watch finishing and the watch starting cross over seemlessly so a 999 call at 0857, 0859, 0900, 0902 etc. is not reacted to any slower due to the crews swapping over. However after one hour on duty, any crew member who is still on duty from the shift before due to staff shortages (this is a normal daily occurance) are now allowed to leave and go home if they so wish. So it is at 1000 when the staff shortages have an affect on the availability of machines. It is at 1000 (and 1900) when regularly, every day in fact dozens of crews become unavailable while waiting for spare FFs to be moved around the brigade to fill the vacant slots. one hour in to the new shift is when the disruption occurs!!! So therefore in the mornings, during this alleged "busy time" which the Chief likes to refer to, their proposed new shifts (0800 start) will suffer the crew shortages at 0900 which is precisely when they claim to need full crewing due to demand!! None of their reasons are at all persuasive to me. I stand by the arguement that the management are still failing t provide one single good reason to alter the contracts. This with the leaked document which the union has published suggests they are lying. If actual cuts are needed fine, be honest about it. But while they pretend this is not about cuts, how can they deserve anything other than scorn for their demands. Final point, the union has presented many alternative shift arrangements to them, new start finish times under 9-15 plus several others. And yes these are ones which have been approved by and do suit the firefighters, but also can be argued will improve efficiency for them too. I know lots of bar staff work unsociable hours too, my son works in nandos and does awful hours. But the FF's I believe do not need to sacrifice any more of their evenings than they aready do to improve. The management have rejected every single one. of these negotiated offers. Sadly the management and unions clearly hate each other, the battle seems rather personal betwen certain figures and the ffs stand to lose more than any otghers regardless. One last point, I was able to track down details of the poor ff who suffered a broken back at work last week, but it wasnt easy. I admit I do love a good conspiracy, but really is it coincidence that this has been all but blocked from the news??? I would have always expected to see a story about an injured ff in the past, even if only very briefly. Im not suggesting that politicians are influencing the press but.............

Is everyone missing my point. The management haven't given one single good reason TO SIGN the new contracts. Who in their right mind would sign a contract which didn't benefit anyone at all? "sign here or your sacked. By the way the new contract will double the number of evenings you work and not benefit anyone at all, but we will say they do just to anger you all and cause division within public opinion" You are being lied to by ruthless people who are comfortable deceiving us all and have only their own careers and legacy at heart. Therefore all the afforementioned points regarding the dire consequences apply. Hence FFs forced to make a stand. All be it probably in the wrong way, but their union has legally acquired enough support to fight the bosses by whatever means necessary. The bosses in return are equally fighting back with all their devious might. Is it not plausible the leaders have this all wrong? I esuspect the leaders on both sides do Presumably eventually the bosses will crush the ffs and their profession will not be the same again. We the paying public had better hope none of us suffer as avresult

Apparently Coleman has given ken livingstone a cast iron guarantee that there will not be cuts or jobs lost. That's that then, if he's promised, everyone might as well sign up now because a politician would never ever lie would they. If I was a ff I would not sign the new contract, I would just get another job. Leave Coleman and his scab buccaneers to their juicy contract and let London fend for it's self.

I dont think 'who has the most dangerous job' competitions are very helpful. It is obviously a dangerous profession and has some of the highest long term health risks associated with any job too http://www.howtobecome.info/articles/Being-a-Firefighter-What-Health-Risks-Are-Involved/2440/338.html is a useful take on the dangers if they really interest you. Though I suspect the guys a sellafield could out do everyone in the long term health risk contest. Dj kills queen, you sound very much like your attitude is "I'm alright, I don't need em, so what's the point in having them around" Which is fine so long as you dong need them and perhaps you never will, I hope you never do. But guaranteed, someone does, everyday. And they will need them fast

DJKQ does sum it up quite well. But please remember this dispute began more than 5 years ago, before the recession/banking crisis unemployment rises etc. and under a labour government. The long term goal to break the union and the fire brigade with a privatised version has been plotted over many years by a few ambitious men who have now picked their moment very well. Choosing to push their agenda through now when the country is in turmoil and job security and money is so scarce is not exactly genius, but it is very well planned and sneaky. And by continuing to centre it on a seemingly trivial change in hours while doggedly denying any other intentions does a wonderful job of discrediting the union and the workers who are resisting this change. I am not surprised they will get little sympathy or support under the circumstances. I suppose once this is over we will learn to live (or die) with whatever remains of the service. I only hope that it will not end up like the police have. After 1700 I have to drive 10 miles and past 5 closed police stations (and two 24 hour fire stations) to speak face to face to an officer. When my car was robbed I was visited two days later to give the details. And when I phoned 999 to report yobs who had been attacking passing buses, I was told to call back on an 0845 number. If the fire service becomes similarly bereft of man power and their resources equally stretched then, it could prove very costly to us and the insurance companies who rely on them to limit damage to insurable property.

Of course the FF campaign has FF's own interests at heart. They are being told to make a change they do not want to make. In my career, every single thing I do from the start of my day to the finish has my own interests at heart. Mine and those of my wife and chidren, who i am lucky to spend every single evening with, every christmas and every weekend. Looking after my customers is something I do as well as I can too, but even that has my own interests at heart, of course I like making people happy, but I like lining my pockets with prfoits too, and thats where happy customers help! I dont understand why self interest is a point of criticism, we are all looking out for ourselves. Having looked into the FB changes, particularly the main sticking point, (start finish times) I cannot see where the benefits are to anyone. Therefore an employer who deliberately attacks a system of work imposing an alternative one which (and this really is pretty obvious and clear) is being presented without any genuine justification must be considered suspicious. Unless of course you do not suspect that Politicians (and political advisors in waiting AKA chief fire officers) are capable of point blank cold faced dishonesty, to suit their own interests. If the chief was honest and said, "look guys moneys really tight. we need to lose a couple thousend of you, we think we can get away with having less of you on duty at night and running with less stations/machines and personnel on the machines too. Its going to be tough, but help us out the money just isnt there to carry on as we are" Now if he said that, then the FBU and FFs would have little option but to work out a way to achieve this. It really would be tough, because Health and safety already tie their hands in so many ways forcing them to adopt inefficient procedures so they can tick safe systems at work boxes. But no chief officer has said "I want you fitting more smoke alarms and doing more training. If you work longer days and shorter nights then you will be able to achieve this" Excuse me but there are still only 24 hours in a day. How that 24 hours is divided up differently doesnt give anyone any more time to perform these duties. FF's can squirt water, tie knots and climb ladders in their yard at 1900 regardless of whether this is an hour before home time, or an hour after starting their shift, the same goes for 0800. FF's know this more than anyone and so does their chief. So.....if chiefy is deliberately provoking FFs by pushing this system on them, and arousing their anger by using a deliberately flaky arguement then, and only time will tell as I suspect colemans strategies are for shaping future years not future months, we will see this service rebuilt entirely. If army regiments dating back hundreds of years can disappear off the map, and privatisation infest every other national institution then there is little hope for the fire service. My worry is this the likes of a debt ridden firm like Asset co running the service full time. Lets face it, the fire brigade is a really expensive insurance against problems. They do not generate any money at all, they cannot. They swallow up loads of tax payers money to provide insurance cover against a range of accidents and disasters. A profiteering privatised Fire service will need to pay its shareholders from government budgets and they will achieve this by shunning the millions of little jobs FF's do for people at the moment. Apologies for ranting and speculating so much, but I am convinced there is more to this story. Just changing a few hours in the day is a big deal for the FFs who lose additional evenings with their families, but it is not a big deal for the employers who stand to gain nothing on the surface. yet still they push them to the picket lines. I for one like the service we have at the moment and do not wish it to deteriorate so I support the FF's and wish them the luck they will need

FF's do enjoy a certain kudos, and automatic respect and great populaity from many (though not quite so many as I thought after reading some of these posts) members of the public. The job is exciting and the gratitude from those they help and the feeling of satisfaction of doing something worthwhile means this is understandably a very popular vocation! My aim in life has always been to enjoy everything I do, including work where possible. Should we slaughter them for this? I suspect the reality of life as a FF is far from glamourous. I lost my home in a fire and saw the conditions that they work in, buring the blaze, and during the hours of clearing up. Incidently this clearing time took hours as they removed all the burnt materials and fire damaged carpets, wood, furniture. They were in there for this period of time without and respiration equipment and were clearly breathing in a lot of fumes. I would be interested to know what sort of effect this has over their career on health and life expectancy. Hazard which just goes with the territory I know, but an additional consideration to those who wish to playdown the dangers of the job. The dispute is very mirky, I do not trust what we are being told. The employers seem very keen to push the FFs out on strike. It smells whiffy to me. This stinks in fact, of a long term strategy, something they have been planning and something they want in order to action some underhand masterplan to destroy the service as we know it. Why push the workers to the point of striking over such an apparantly small change? Can this really be good for the tax paying public? Especially the less wealthy who must surely rely more on emergency services. It is pretty obvious that the 3 hours on a day shift wont be used any better than it is currently on their night shift. They are perfectly capable of performing safety work and training within their existing patterns. However from their side, giving up 4 evenings a week instead of 2! I can see how that will enrage them when it is being proposed without any valid reasoning. I am a builder, I only ever work for wealthier people. In homes where the electrics are certificated and new, burgler and smoke alarms are rigged to ADT, they can afford emergency plumbers and locksmiths. It is the less wealthy, those who live in shoddy homes with old electrics, old plumbing, too much clutter and dirt to live safely, should we not care about these people? Older people, I have more pity for the old than any other disadvantaged group in society, these are the people who depend upon the fire service the most. In a modern civilised society surely we have a responsibility to look after everyone. If the fire service is broken up and replaced by a profiteering private contractor, and I believe that this is exactly what is really at stake here, then will they still answer every 999 distress call with an appliance? Kids locked in flats, cars, burst pipes the list of services the brigade attend are limitless. In act I have been informed that already operators are refusing to send a crew to people stuck in a lift. Have you ever been stuck in a lift? I haven't but if I was I would be very unhappy if the brigade decided i should wait for a lift engineer to release me because their priorities no longer considered this an emergency. Maybe if the brigade were being more honest over whats really going on, they would be able to work with FF's to achieve improvements and cuts to make the service leaner and more efficient. But to my eye, the management are deliberately peddling lies over the benefits of 12 hour shifts which are so flimsy, so obviously untrue, that FF's are inevitably furious that they should have their contracts torn up for no good reason! I see this as one the FF's cannot win no matter what they do, they probably know it too. But no one wants to go down without a fight. I support them because I dislike liars, bully's and I am afraid what we will be left with once this is all over if we the paying public do not demand a world class rescue service which is ready to help anyone all of the time.