Mark Dodds

@zeban thanks for that Guardian link. Well then, that article just proves how messed up the whole system is. It's not complicated, if 'Cognita' makes a substantial profit out of education - it's not doing education for the right reasons. A profit for any business is a necessity but in education it should be regarded not as a profit but as a surplus which should and MUST be invested back into the education system in order to make a better learning environment for future generations of customers i.e. children. @Curmudgeon. My boys don't need a boot camp. They are well socialised, fairly streetwise, broad minded, alert and competent young people. They want excitement, stimulation, inspiration, engagement, exploration and access to the wider world that surrounds them. These factors apply to many of their friends, no matter their demographic background. They don't want to be pinned down to the needs of kids who have the misfortune to come from screwed up dysfunctional backgrounds that make them incapable of concentrating on their life development. In a sense this whole discussion aboout secondary education makes little sense because, as it must be at government level because there are too many hot potatoes that cannot be touched, it's not taking a holistic view of Education For All. The discussion is about one cohort of kids when really it should be looking generally at why so many children who get to secondary school age are altogether incapable of engaging in education at all; who seem rather to exist by underachievement or to thrive by disrupting their educational surroungings in which case no one gets a decent educational deal. The fact is that good schools are in large part good schools because they manage to keep underperforming kids out and kids who cannot perform get concentrated in a few schools where there's little chance for them to ever get out of life's slough of despond. It's half a picture when we cannot Children NEED to be capable of learning how to be competent people. They need to be given the opportunity of becoming fully functioning grown ups and, quite patently, our society does not enable all people the chance to break away from their backgrounds - when the only route thay have is through education. More must be done for education everywhere for everyone. I hope this is cogent, I am knackered and going to be in bed in five.

Thank you Queenie. I'm not angry and don't mean to appear sarcastic to anyone who disagrees with me, my apologies that it comes across that way; and I certainly didn't vote for this coalition nonsense - or anyone in it. This strikes me as an interesting read: http://bit.ly/g1uQAa

There are separate problems on distinct levels. I'm clear what they are and have no confusion whatsoever about why I am motivated to do something constructive. To touch on a few: The issue of educational standards is entirely separate to the faith problem. Entirely separate from results if my son had been offered a place at Sacred Heart, a Catholic school with apparently excellent academic performance, I would be equally uncomfortable, outraged even, about the situation. Besides the serious issue of faith St Thomas the Apostle does a good job; given its intake. I want my children to experience an education at a school whose demographic reflects that of the area they are growing up in; not one that is an indictment of a shockingly badly organised education system we all pay for. The demographic of Comber Grove, their junior school, placed slap bang in the middle of acres of social housing, is fine for me and us as a family. It's not my job to be a social worker and get behind changing a school I don't feel comfortable about my son attending on faith grounds alone. On Evelyn Grace, it has a reputation for being a boot camp and, besides, it's not part of my world because it's not been offered as a place. And anyway, from evidence, clearly its existence does not alleviate the lack of places locally. If I could, I'd change all the rules and change all the schools and apply common sense across the board but that would make too much sense and the world would come to a sudden stop and we would all fall off.

Thank you Quennie and zeban. AS IT HAPPENS I am quite well informed and what I've deduced from being well informed has led me down the route I'm taking. It's good to know that Queenie's friend's son is doing wonderfully at an all boys Catholic school that accepts more Pentecostal Christians than it does Catholics, presumably because the Catholics don't think it's as good as other Catholic schools they have a choice in sending their children to, as well as many of the non faith children who get passed its way because there is nowhere else more appropriate for them to go. None of that is the point. The point is I do not agree with the principles behind faith schools or with those of private education and I'm trying to do something effective that may help redress some of the grotesque imbalance in the system. Maybe it'll make the imbalance even greater; whatever; I'm doing something instead of nothing. And, Queenie, IF my son goes to ST Thomas the Apostle I WILL get behind it, while he is there. Thanks again for the advice.

Patently there IS a lack of places. Forty children in Southwark did not get a place, over 200 were offered a place at a school that evidently is unacceptable to the parents and, clearly, thousands of children get a shoclkingly substandard education that afflicts them, and society, for the rest of their lives. It is glaringly obvious that what really should happen is a total overhaul of our entire school system but that, obviously, is not on the cards nor will it ever be... Making our education system work well for everyone is far too sensible a need for society to make it a priority for us as a nation. So for the time being I'll see where this goes with the Michaela School and report back as and when I can.

Thank you Belle, you have the point. That aside the whole system is utterly senseless.

Thanks for the advice Queenie. Couple of things really; Which local secondary school would I get behind then exactly? St Michael's & All Angels or Sacred Heart? What other means of getting a decent school up and running might there be as long this lot are in government? I don't have a lot of time any more for politicians of any description, only for people who do a good job, irrespective of their leanings left or right. Or perhaps I'll wait a while and put my energy into the all boys Catholic school it looks like my son will be going to, the one that wasn't on our list of poncey 'unrealistic' secular coed preferences?

Here are the beginnings of the new community school being planned with Katharine Birbalsingh's considerable drive behind it: http://michaelacommunityschool.co.uk/blog

I went. A lot of people came and it was useful for me although a friend I went with said she had learned nothing she didn't know already. It's the only school I've had contact with through the application process that went to the trouble to spend time and effort explaining the system to parents. The information was applicable across the board and would be useful to anyone appealing anywhere. The head introduced the evening and handed over to a woman from Clerks Associates who covered the whole process in detail. It was all about reassuring people, demystifying the whole silly process of being without a place you want. I think it reflects the rather appealing humanitarian nature of the school. I might be wrong.

Thanks for posting this James. Must just point out the obvious to keep this on track: The children who have been offered a place will no doubt not have got places on their list - and there still is the matter of the TEN children remaining without a place at all. Being put into and then left in limbo about your future so young is not acceptable collateral damage of an education system that needs fixing. What then of course about the 200 families whose children were allocated unsatisfactory places not on their lists at all?

@BB100 Thanks for asking; nothing yet, just a bunch of appeals gone in with a general indication that dropping off appeals is a total waste of time, paper, ink and fuel. Appeals against what? We have no grounds for appeal, neither does anyone else unless there's been a cock up in the first round and ESN or sibling priority or other stuff has been ignored. Parents who work to set up a school should, of course, get a guaranteed place for their child. Just look at the mess we've made of education up to this point. We are flawed, we are human, we need motivation and what better motivation - it's a LOT of work for no financial gain - could there be than to know your child will benefit and get into a brilliant school that reflects your dream education set up? @Belle / westof. I did Latin at a grim grammar school. After my experience I wouldn't recommend it to anyone but the experience was horrible. 'Latin is a dead language' are the first words Miss Sargeant uttered and the last ones most of us remembered. She really got us in the palm of her hand. Still, I suppose I know where the root of puerile lies. Ah yes: amo amas amat amamus amatis amant. Deyz waz da dayz

@prickle; it's difficult all of this media stuff. I'm quite high profile in The Fair Pint Campaign and I'm used to my comments being misunderstood and misinterpreted and being accused of having ego problems. I've been told that I'm a forum bully, basically for being prepared to state my case unambiguously against a scandalously iniquitous status quo. I told a group of posters on a pub trade forum that they were deniers of the reality of the damaging effects of the beer tie and was promptly accused of being anti Semitic and of using phrases that had no place in a debate about pubs - this is a debate that skirts around the facts of thousands of publicans going out of business, losing their homes and life savings and communities losing scarce local resources. Not something to be taken lightly. I went to meet KB having a negative impression I'd picked up from the press but an open mind because I know what it can be like through the filters of media. HOWEVER. When she is stood up to so to speak - I don't mean confrontation, rather that when a robust alternative view to hers is put forward, she listens intently, takes it in, assesses what she hears and takes it on very well. She knows what she is on about. Three of the steering group are people who have worked with her who clearly find her highly inspiring. She is very enthusiastic and on balance I am confident her motives are solid and more to do with children than with ego. Her enthusiasm makes her seem over eager and brash at times I think but her energy and drive is extraordinary and that is what it takes to get something like this done. She is aware of her strengths and limitations and is managing that well. Evidence is that she has brought the people on her Steering Group together with a shrewd strategic view. The range of skills and experience in the group is impressive. It says a LOT about her strategic vision and her understanding of her own capabilities. She's good and I'm still keeping an open mind.

YEAH prickle. I share your concerns. But what do you know about the detail? PART of the three hour discussion on Monday night was about languages. Mandarin was being pushed along with Arabic. Latin was not part of the mix really, other than Toby Young's obsession with it. This project is NOT about ego, it's about EDUCATION.

OH I see. Anyone out there read the Daily Telegraph online? This is my meeting with Katharine Birbalsingh. It's a fairly accurate account, there are a couple of things I'll put her straight on, and the interpretation of me gives me a good insight into where she is at: Our broken state system has eradicated a man?s right to look after his family I sit down with a man, in his forties, white, middle-class, reads The Guardian no doubt ? a perfectly ordinary man. His eldest boy is in year 6, ready to go to a local secondary school in September. He has heard about me and wants to know more. I tell him about my new school and why I think there is need for schools like this. He nods, listens and agrees. ?I just want my boy to have the choice of a decent secondary school? you know?? ?I know. You want what any parent wants. I don?t think what you want is unreasonable. The way we carry on in the state sector, you?d think it was.? ?Yes, I agree. There is a group of us, all with year 6 kids. We meet regularly to discuss why we don?t have any choice about where our kids can go. Some of us don?t have a school at all. None of us got our first choices, and all of us are unhappy with where our kids are going.? I feel sick talking to him. It?s like watching a car accident. I want to turn away and watch something prettier on the other side of the room. Instead, I look on at him in permanent despair at what might happen to his boy. ?I just want my boy to go to a school where he isn?t in danger of being stabbed, you know? I just don?t want him to be bullied. I want him to feel safe, not scared.? ?Do you hear what you?re saying? Just look at how our society has forced your standards down to the lowest common denominator! You aren?t asking for good teaching, or excellent leadership. You aren?t even asking for certain subjects or for extra-curricular activities. You?re simply begging that your son?s life not be put in danger at school!? I make fist. ?Then I am told that I?m wrong?that I don?t know what I?m talking about when I say the system is broken? It makes me so angry!? He nods vigorously, wanting to find out more about free schools, and what he can do. ?But you?re too late,? I say, ?you?re late for your eldest. Your youngest child in year 4 ? you can save him. But your eldest?a free school now would not open until September 2012 at the earliest, and only with year 7. By that time, your boy will be in year 8.? The man looks horrified. ?That?s why nothing ever changes in this country. Every year, year 6 parents get together and complain. One woman in my group was saying she was writing to Harriet Harman.? In my head I think what good is that going to do? But I nod politely as he continues. ?You see, every year, groups of parents don?t act quickly enough to get change for their kids. Then when we realise we cannot save our own children, we give up, and no one does anything?and nothing ever changes.? I nod. ?Yes, I see what you mean. But you can still do something for your youngest.? The man sits there, staring ahead of me, silent. He looks as if he?s about to cry. But he grabs hold of himself. ?I?m sorry?sorry. Didn?t mean to get so emotional. So what can we do about it?? I start talking. Later, when I walk away, my step feels heavy thinking about this poor man and countless others like him ? men who don?t want to admit defeat, who only want to do what?s right by their families. A man is a man when he looks after his children. Our broken state system (mixed with ideological social pressures) has eradicated a man?s right to look after his family. The situation is so bad it is enough to make a grown man cry. Does this not say something damning about our country? Funny enough she didn't get this bit at all. What made me well up wasn't my own son's situation - THAT situation is just preposterous. NO. What got my tears going, and it's happened each time I've told someone about it (like now) was my telling her about my son's classmate who didn't get offered a place at all. THAT MAKES ME WELL UP. He's a lovely boy - streetwise, bright, son of single mum. He was at my pub after school with my boys and two others and I asked him: 'So, what's happening about your not getting a place?' he put his head down and shook it, indicating he didn't want to talk about it in front of the other boys. My sons both rolled their eyes and shook their heads too looking like 'who said that?'. When we were alone later I asked my boys why he was so secretive about it and they said he doesn't want anyone at school to know because he's embarrassed that he didn't get a place at any school while everyone else in his class did. Next day, when we were alone with my boys, I asked him about this and he said he felt ashamed that he'd got no school to go to, said he thought they thought he didn't deserve it. Now what kind of system makes it OK by any measure whatsoever for this to happen to even ONE eleven year old? To make en eleven year old feel worthless, useless, chucked aside? Even if he gets a place at a half decent school by September this is going to be with him for his whole life. A system which promotes this sort of injustice quite simply is not acceptable. And this year it happened to 43 eleven year olds. FORTY THREE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN TOTALLY LET DOWN BY THEIR SOCIETY We're not at war, there hasn't been a natural disaster, we're just making it seem like that.

Kings?

Have to admit zeban, I feel uncomfortable in Clapham. I lived in Balham for five years when it felt as neglected as Camberwell does now. I was glad to leave it for Kennington. I was one of the first of the wave of yuppies who moved there in the mid eighties. I ceased to be a yuppie when I moved into a bedsit in New Cross Gate. This state of affairs has continued until now - a penniless publican twixt Peckham and Brixton. B'twixt the commons? UGH.

@zeban. Come on, give it a rest, you sound like a cross between Wolfie Smith and Cato creeping up from the undergrowth. Your stance up to now basically is: 'this is the way it is, get on with it you lily livered middle classes'. You are defending the status quo - and the fact is the status quo is not anywhere good enough. It lets society down. Get active, get involved - change something. The admission policy for the school we're looking at setting up will ensure that people from underprivileged backgrounds will get fair representation.

This school does not HAVE to be in Lambeth. Perhaps Renata Hamvas and Catherine McDonald might like to consider getting behind this and help setting up a school with a Camberwell/East Dulwich catchment.

@Renata. Dear Renata, you're really well informed. Might you and Catherine McDonald have an interest in looking at the possibility of Southwark administration getting some political will behind setting up a new community school for the Camberwell/East Dulwich area? Could some aspects of this thread combine with the other well viewed one on secondary education: http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?29,640809,page=4

@skyblue and sillywoman and others, I don't know anything more about the EDH site; I've very little spare time to do any research. It would be great if someone here could look into it. Any chance? If ten people do one bit of work each, very quickly a lot of work has been done. It's the way the Fair Pint Campaign, which has no money at all and is run by six of us sharing out jobs we each can handle, has had a lot of success against very powerful pub companies who have ?millions to spend supporting their business model that is closing pubs all over the UK. @CityMum. I share your concern but I don't see another way to go. It is as it is. It is as it has been decreed by people who went to public school. That's democracy... There is no other way for parents to open a school. The result for all these schools will be Academy status (and I have doubts that many will get off the ground, the hurdles are so high, incredibly demanding - it's difficult to see how a group of part time people, no matter how talented, could get this together so much work needs to be done). In the case of Katharine's school the intention is to set catchment criteria that guarantee an intake with a broad social mix - of all classes and abilities. By the way, if I say the wrong thing such as using the word 'selection', which is probably illegal to use in this context, it's because I do not know the jargon or the rules. Don't shoot me down, point out that I'm making a gaffe. You should get involved in some way - you clearly know a lot more than I do. @Worrywart deadline for applications is in May. There's 8 weeks or so to find prospective sites, develop the business case and build a business plan for submission. And to get 300 signatures from people who want to have their name on the application for year one and two intake. Please watch this space for more on that one. The responses to round one applications come back late August early September when there may be funds to trigger working up a second level application (I think this is the case, there was a lot to take hold of last night). The whole thing is a competition by the way, all applications are compared against each other and the disbursement of funds allocated thus somehow. Don't tell me. I Know. It's a crap shoot of a different kind from the selection process for secondary.

I know what you mean. It's the steering groups' job to refine these things now and to nail down the direction of the thing.

Just got back from steering group meeting for Katharine Birbalsingh's new community school. I know a lot more about the process now. I've already been told this by friends who are much more switched on than I am in this area and, to say the least, the practical hurdles set up by the government for these applications from parent and community groups are incredibly challenging... That said, the people Katharine brought together cover a very impressive range of skills, networks and experience. If anyone can jump the hurdles and get a successful school at the end of it, I think I saw them tonight. Crucial to the success is finding a number of appropriate sites, in appropriate locations, to choose from. Just to make it clear - the outline below says Lambeth but if a site can be identified in Southwark it will not be dismissed. This is an outline of the ethos of the proposed school: Where tradition and innovation meet. ? Non-denominational, 11?18, mixed school in Lambeth ? Beginning with Year 7 only and will increase in size by one year group every year ? Four form entry school with 120 children in each year group ? At full capacity, the school will have 840 children, including 6th Form Tradition ? Academic focus ? with an emphasis on knowledge acquisition ? Strong discipline ethos ? order and high expectations ? Rigorous competition ? all children will know where they stand in comparison to their peers and how to improve ? A love of learning how to think embedded in our ethos ? Ambition and hard work are the minimum expectations Innovation ? Extended day will allow for Oxbridge preparation, reading club, homework club, debating club, anti-street-culture club, competitive sport, peripatetic music, drama, Latin ? Student voice ? Vertical & mixed-ability tutor groups ? Active parental involvement ? parents will be required to participate in their child?s learning

@Worrywart: I was just pondering how to deal with this when you posted. Yes, I met Katharine Birbalsingh this afternoon. From one meeting it seems our views are closely aligned. She is demonstrably passionate about the need for all to have access to high quality education. It's clear that she cares enormously about the need for children from difficult to impossible backgrounds to get great schooling, and that children from all backgrounds should be educated together, and finds it scandalous that our education system works SO badly for so many people. She's convincing in her determination to make change happen. She intends to set up a Free School and appears to know what needs to be done to make it happen. She has not found a site - so keep a look out. I'm thinking about it. Another thing; I'd heard and read quite a lot about Katharine before the dreaded day of school place reckoning came about and reading between the lines it seemed likely that she was being presented unfairly in many different ways. What I heard today backs up that impression. Long live the free press.

If you do swear in front of the kids don't be embarrassed, don't try to cover it up; just admit you did it, apologise and explain why you did - give them some context, explain it's part of language and that by and large there are more appropriate ways to express yourself - ways that are more expressive and intelligible. Train them to be people not to be perfect.

Many thanks to those of you who explained bits and pieces about what frankly is an impenetrable pile of nonsense about our 'education system'. What emerges for me is: 1) There is no 'system' at all 2) It is letting everyone down, one way or another no one escapes the inequities of it 3) Attemps to correct it have been vastly expensive and are done in isolation from the whole and therefore doomed to only partial success 4) It's all breathtakingly stupid; no one has any control over changing it who doesn't have a political agenda