rachp

Hi James, one simple way that Lordship Lane and and the surrounding areas could be made more attractive is to have better waste management routines. Most of the litter on LL is caused by bags of household waste left on the street for too long or not secured properly (which ends up attracting litter, and/or being ripped open on the street), plus insufficient bins/infrequent and badly timed emptying (which means rubbish blows out/is pulled out or people pile rubbish on floor next to full bin). I would describe all this as avoidable litter as a few simple tweaks to routines would make a big difference and I don't think they would have big resource implications. Simple things like each patch on the commercial area of LL having a bin, daily emptying, emptying the bins during predictably busy periods (e.g. North Cross road street food market- LL bins are all spilling onto the floor by Sunday morning) would all make a difference. And a consistent rubbish collection service on the lane for people who live above the shops (some appear to have rubbish collected daily, others have it done once a week, which doesn't seem fair and results in bags sitting there for days, sometimes right next to outdoor cafe seating e.g. Spinach.

Yeah, it makes us feel better to rant but I?m not sure it achieves much in terms of being heard by those with opposing views. A balanced, calm person is much harder to take issue with than a raging, angry, sarcastic one. That said, I did lose my patience with a taxi driver who threw his gloves on my street yesterday, literally seconds after I?d finished cleaning it.

Assuming this conversation goes in the direction of positive initiatives, this is quite inspiring from our neighbours in Gipsy Hill https://gipsyhillfriends.org/. I wonder how much appetite there is for something like this in ED?

Sounds like classic justification behaviour, I?m going to behave badly and blame it on someone else. Also, total ignorance about how hard it is to deliver everything with LA budgets. I do think the councils should play a part but anyone reasonable can see that if everyone descends on the park on the same day, with their bags full of rubbish, it?s totally unreasonable to expect the council to stay on top of that. Richmond Park had a sign up saying we have 6 full time cleaning staff plus volunteers, but on busy days, we need you to do your bit too. Of course, some people would still take issue with this but most reasonable people would see it as fair enough. Only problem is, I?m not sure how many people are reasonable! Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I work in Kent. Kent CC have gone for the attached > approach, saying that it has a greater effect, > rather than the negative insults of the NZ poster > shown above. > (Don't know if it does, the park close to my > office still has obvious litter problems after a > sunny weekend.) > > There was a discussion about this in one of the > local Facebook groups, and there were loads of > people saying that we pay our council tax for the > council to clean up the parks, and there should be > more bins, completely rejecting any suggestion > that people should take their rubbish home if the > bins are full. > > I just don't get it.

Hopefully these comments don?t turn out to be as bad an idea as him gleefully encouraging us all to shake hands with people, shortly before catching COVID

Well apparently Boris is now on the case, encouraging us to take matters into our own hands....https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/confront-litterbugs-says-boris-johnson-rtq3t992b

It?s got to be a community plus authority plus business partnership. Govt. can do something in terms of education and campaigns, they made it socially unacceptable to drink-drive, not wear a seatbelt etc and this could be done on litter. As you said Malumbu, I think most reasonable people don?t just drop litter but there are certain circumstances when they either litter or do things that contribute to litter. Cigarettes are a great example of situation specific littering. And KBT did a great campaign on it in Manchester where they got people to think about dropping a cigarette butt differently- they just hadn?t thought about it as litter but the campaign reframed it quite successfully. But obviously it?s not going to make a difference if it?s only done in Manchester! Councils can be smart with infrastructure e.g. bins- the bins outside co-op were completely full at 10am this morning and of course, it was a mess by this afternoon. It will probably be worse by tomorrow morning. Why wouldn?t you empty the bins on a daily basis on a street as busy as Lordship Lane? They will only have to clear it up tomorrow. And in the meantime, they?ve sent out a message that we are ok with litter, it?s not really a priority. It all contributes to the psychology of littering. And orgs can fund coordinated campaigns- I think the government are trying to do this with cigarette producers at the moment. Community is massive, if people take pride in looking after their neighbourhood, I think this is pretty contagious if it?s visible. Some of the communities on the Kent coast have done an amazing job of fighting back on litter. If other countries can achieve the right culture around this, then it is possible. But it needs to be prioritised at all levels

Well done for getting the bins in though Nigello! Shows it?s worth trying. I?ve also had great support from James McAsh on getting more done to clean up after the Saturday market on North x road. Every little counts!

Ha, if ever there was evidence that no demographic is immune, it?s the Gails coffee cups you see everywhere. I have also been lobbying hard to the council about a number of things including posters on bins but to no avail- they have outright refused to do it. I also think being more strategic about pinch points would be smart....

I think the council could/should put out more bins but I also think we need a mindset shift. People rock up to the park with a bag full of stuff for a picnic and expect that there is bin space for them to leave it in before they go home. And if there isn?t, they feel entitled to dump it next to the bin. Once too many people do that, the place does quite literally look like a rubbish dump. Is that really what our parks are for? And once the wind and wildlife have got hold, they might as well have dumped it anywhere.

That is true, and I was mostly just reflecting on how nice it was to go for a walk and not get distracted by litter. However, I think the demographics aren?t 100% to account for behaviour. Dulwich park is in a pretty affluent area and there are plenty of people who pile up rubbish around the bins there.

There is a lot that could be done but there is not much political will at local or national level. Southwark haven?t issued littering fines in the last three years, according to stats released recently. Just been to Wimbledon common and Richmond park today and both were spotless so it?s sad to hear the Rye is getting trashed again, it?s so unnecessary. The piling your rubbish next to the bins thing drives me bonkers, but I do think a clever campaign could change the perception that this is somehow acceptable. People think that?s not litter and justify it to themselves. More bins would help too. It is worth going to councillors on this stuff as they need to know people are bothered for any kind of chance of it being treated as a priority.

Yes, it?s really depressing. I live a stones throw from Lordship Lane, my kids are at school/nursery on LL and EDG. I?m not poor and I?m not black. And it wouldn?t make me feel much better if some of the toxic fumes my kids breathe were shifted elsewhere in my neighbourhood, even to the roads of those who are richer than I am. We walk around our neighbourhood, we breathe the air on court Lane when we walk to the park and we breathe the air on lordship lane when we walk to school M-F. So everyone, in my community, doing their bit with the capacity they have, to bring down total pollution levels is what would make me feel a lot better.

I don?t think our lungs care how much we earn- wouldn?t we all be better off cleaner air? Which requires less car journeys to be made overall. Feels like we need we need to raise our aims higher, from socially fair distribution of toxic emissions to less, everywhere, for everyone. Are we fighting the right battle?

I don?t think our lungs care how much we earn- wouldn?t we all be better off cleaner air? Which requires less car journeys to be made overall. Feels like we need we need to raise our aims higher, from socially fair distribution of toxic emissions to less, everywhere, for everyone. Are we fighting the right battle?

My daughter is at the existing nursery and no, it?s not cheap. Ownership set up has changed since it first opened, so it is a family owned business and I would say the ethos is quite different now from when it first opened. They are claiming not be oversubscribed due to COVID but I don?t know the detail on this. As a parent, the main concern I?d have is staff being poached as this impacts the children. Hard to say if they?d be affected commercially, I agree that in the past, a serious lack of nursery places has been an issue. The idea that the nursery would be car free is a not credible, given the number of parents who drive to the existing nursery. And a new nursery is likely to attract parents from far and wide, who can?t get places more local to them.

Nigello, I agree. It's always worth contacting people about these things if they are bothering you. I've also had positive responses from the parks team and friends of Dulwich Park about similar issues. Sounds like they are really trying to get on top of the litter situation- it's just the behaviour of some members of the public that need addressing. Unfortunately, that's not so easy.

Hi James, referring to your message about ways to manage litter differently.... North X road bins are not emptied over the weekend which given how busy that road is with the street market and cafes etc. seems crazy. By Sunday morning, they are spilling all over the pavement. I have raised it with the council team and they have told me they are usually emptied but this has not happened over the weekend since before September. Given the bins are emptied on Lordship Lane, surely the two bins on north x could be added to the schedule- the time saved by not emptying them must be lost by the clean up job on a Monday morning. When I pointed out that according to Southwark website, busy retail areas are cleaned at least daily, I was told that this applies to places like Rye Lane that has its bins emptied three times a day. Knowing this, surely North X could get some attention at least once over the weekend. As other posts on here indicate, North X on a Saturday is indeed, very busy! I would have thought bin emptying should be a standard activity where a street market is licensed and generates income for the council.

Hi dontbesilly, how lovely to see you and your anti-mask views are back!

Pull the other one... hmmm, I remember another xharming character on here who used that turn of phrase, sounds very familiar...

Great idea for people to help out on their own streets with leaves and litter. When we do litter picks with plastic free east Dulwich, the council provides bags and I think advises on where to leave them. I can find out. I'm sure they would be supportive of community minded input where they can help with little effort.

I did wonder if you were talking about the bins on the Lordship Lane end of Matham Grove but they are on the pavement. You could try knocking on the door or send them a note?

I think there are people who say you can do what you like, as long as you put no restriction on my driving. There are so many posts on this subject thst I have probably missed the ones that list out viable alternatives that would reduce the number of cars on the road without upsetting anyone. And ockets Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > rachp Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > At a macro level, the real outcome of this > should > > be not be being able to walk and cycle on your > own > > road more easily but more of us being motivated > to > > get from A to B over long distances on bike or > > foot- that's where the individual behaviour > change > > will happen and collectively, we would see less > > cars on the roads. I don't think the council > has > > done a good job on this front in terms of > showing > > how people can use the closed roads as a new > > travel network and indeed enabling this e.g. > > through installing Santander bikes. > > > > And yes, it is really rough on those impacted > by > > increased pollution on their roads. My kids > are > > on EDG and LL 5 days a week and that worries me > > but I was already worried about pollution so > the > > do nothing option doesn't work for me either. > If > > we all expect that we can keep driving as much > as > > we always have, and with Covid, more so, > pollution > > is only going in one direction. And the > > psychological evidence shows that the external > > environment needs to change for most of us to > make > > meaningful changes to our habits, people aren't > > going to wake up en masse one day and change > > because they are worried about the environment > (or > > at least not until the tangible pain of > pollution > > is so great that they feel they have no choice > and > > we don't want to get to that point) > > > > > > > > heartblock Wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > ----- > > > I don?t drive > > > > > > ?The two views seem to be: > > > > > > 1. Those who really want to be able to drive > > > without hindrance > > > 2. Those who want to make it easier to walk > and > > > cycle and more difficult to use ones car. > > > > > > The main disagreement is whether attempts to > > > achieve this with filtering traffic on > certain > > > roads, leads to better or worse outcomes in > > > general, when it comes to health, the > > environment, > > > quality of life etc. Reasonable people may > take > > > different views on this, as clearly there are > > > knock on impacts. But if you agree with aim > 2. > > , > > > but not the approach to trying to attain it, > > then > > > it would be interesting to hear alternatives > > > suggestions. > > > > > > I haven't really heard however, anyone > > explaining > > > how the first approach (sticking with the > > status > > > quo) can possibly make anything better.? > > > > > > I walk and cycle...my road is now awful to > > cycle > > > or walk on for 4 hours a day during the > working > > > week. I?m sure if my road had been closed I > > would > > > also be saying ?these closures are > > wonderful?.... > > > but instead I now have all your traffic on my > > > road. Thanks. > > > I don't think anyone is suggesting to not do > anything what people are saying is don't do this > thing as it won't work and it is making things > worse. Closing lots of roads is clearly not the > solution.

At a macro level, the real outcome of this should be not be being able to walk and cycle on your own road more easily but more of us being motivated to get from A to B over long distances on bike or foot- that's where the individual behaviour change will happen and collectively, we would see less cars on the roads. I don't think the council has done a good job on this front in terms of showing how people can use the closed roads as a new travel network and indeed enabling this e.g. through installing Santander bikes. And yes, it is really rough on those impacted by increased pollution on their roads. My kids are on EDG and LL 5 days a week and that worries me but I was already worried about pollution so the do nothing option doesn't work for me either. If we all expect that we can keep driving as much as we always have, and with Covid, more so, pollution is only going in one direction. And the psychological evidence shows that the external environment needs to change for most of us to make meaningful changes to our habits, people aren't going to wake up en masse one day and change because they are worried about the environment (or at least not until the tangible pain of pollution is so great that they feel they have no choice and we don't want to get to that point) heartblock Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I don?t drive > > ?The two views seem to be: > > 1. Those who really want to be able to drive > without hindrance > 2. Those who want to make it easier to walk and > cycle and more difficult to use ones car. > > The main disagreement is whether attempts to > achieve this with filtering traffic on certain > roads, leads to better or worse outcomes in > general, when it comes to health, the environment, > quality of life etc. Reasonable people may take > different views on this, as clearly there are > knock on impacts. But if you agree with aim 2. , > but not the approach to trying to attain it, then > it would be interesting to hear alternatives > suggestions. > > I haven't really heard however, anyone explaining > how the first approach (sticking with the status > quo) can possibly make anything better.? > > I walk and cycle...my road is now awful to cycle > or walk on for 4 hours a day during the working > week. I?m sure if my road had been closed I would > also be saying ?these closures are wonderful?.... > but instead I now have all your traffic on my > road. Thanks.

My condolences, I didn't see anything but I was in the blue brick cafe when it happened. So sad.