Rockets

And in case Cllr McAsh missed the questions posed on the other thread before it met its untimely end there are some questions that it would be good for him to shed light on: 1) Where is the Jan 19 data from (for what purposes was it collected and from which point was it collected as it is not the same location as the Sept 21 monitoring point)? 2) What methodology was used to arrive at the Sept 21 figure? 3) Why does the EDG Central chart say: the Pre-implementation data for Jan 2019 has been adjusted to September 2019 levels to ensure compatibility and what adjustment took place and why? 4) Why was the decision taken to add the EDG Central monitoring point in Sept 21? 5) When was the Sep 21 monitoring captured - was it at the beginning of the month before the private schools went back or at the end of the month during the fuel crisis?

Admin - surely that's a yellow not a straight red? I think you could have warned people rather than locking the whole thread - it seems a bit knee-jerk but we appreciate you have been under pressure to lounge the thread so perhaps we should have self-policed a little more!

It's utterly mindless to post that on twitter - what was he thinking? It could well come back to haunt him - that stuff never disappears. I suspect half of Southwark Labour have liked it....if Cllr Williams has liked it is shows the attitude problem goes all the way to the top...more and more they act as if they are untouchable.....May 5th may come as a shock to a few.... I am amazed as well that someone sensible in Labour hasn't had a quiet word in his ear to say it needs to be deleted.

It is, in fact, incredibly stupid to post that on twitter but as we have seen time and time again from many councillors all they care about is their own echo-chamber and seem to lose all sense of reality when it comes to talking to like-minded individuals. He thinks it's funny, and I am sure his comrades would be all rolling about laughing at the message on his jumper but he wouldn't be happy if a Tory councillor was wearing a jumper that was saying "F*** teachers" so why is is it acceptable for him to target any group no matter how despicable you think that group might be? But given some of the people he looks up to refer to their opposition as s**m you can see how this happens. There's an air of aggression in politics nowadays and people in public office should be engaging brain before posting - Cllr McAsh has made a serious error of judgement here and I am not sure his school would be overly happy if their pupils were following him on twitter to see one of their teachers posting that. I understand personal views etc on twitter but you are still representing both the council and the school in your bio - show some class and don't drag your profession and council office into the gutter. The fact Cllr Williams has liked it speaks volumes - perhaps he will claim he didn't see the profanity on the jumper, nor the finger sign on it too! I can see the funny side, I just don't think someone in Cllr McAsh's position should be posting it onto a public twitter channel when he has no idea who will see it. And the fact Malumbu thinks anyone who has an issue with this is suffering a sense of humour failure just shows how some people will try to forgive anything within their own echo-chamber and highlights the point I was making earlier. As the Manics so wonderfully said: If you tolerate this your children will be next My worry remains that is the council are treating their constituents with such contempt over LTNs what else are they doing and what else will they do in future?

Metallic also raises a very good point about why so many of us are asking for the detail behind the data. All we have from the council is that the monitoring was done in September 21 but we need to know when it was collected because at the beginning of the month the local private schools had not gone back and at the end of the month the fuel crisis was resulting in a massive reduction in car and vehicle usage. So it is vital that information is shared so people know what the council is comparing. This is why Cllr Williams promised to share that data but has yet to do so.

Wow - had missed Cllr McAsh's Xmas twitter post: https://twitter.com/mcash/status/1474732079938158600?t=FOR6wsnJTMOsIBiLoc4dKQ&s=19 I suspect if a non-Labour councillor had posted something like this there would be outrage from the likes of Cllr McAsh trying to get them cancelled, contacting their employer to say is this appropriate for a primary school teacher and representative of the council to be posting this. But it seems if you are a Labour councillor (or for that matter opposition front bench member) you can do what you like, say what you like without any form of recrimination.

Same today with the Tuesday collections - everyone has put them by their brown bins but none have been collected.

I think we pretty much have that model here: - council installs measures it has struggled to get support for on the basis of the need for emergency social distancing caused by Covid - council engages in tick-box "consultation" process because it has to by law - "consultation" process demonstrates overwhelming local opposition to the measures in their current form - council issues highly flawed monitoring data and summary reports that hail the measures as a "success" - council leader promises to share methodology, timings and raw data used to collate the reports but never does - council proceeds regardless and makes the decision to make them permanent which we all knew was going to be the outcome the moment they put them in under the ludicrous guise of the need for social distancing Malumbu - be careful what you wish for. Just because you think these measures are great doesn't mean you should be celebrating the way Southwark have gone about this because next time they might be employing the same under-hand tactics to railroad something through that you don't like......and before you know it the people have zero influence on anything the council wants to do and that is a very dangerous precedent. Respect for the democratic process should be the no.1 protected priority within all local, regional and national authorities but it seems Southwark likes to bend the rules to their advantage if it suits their political agenda.

It's getting beyond a joke now. It's worse than it has ever been, it's as if they have just given up delivering letters. We haven't had any for a couple of weeks now and we know that come the second week of Jan a huge bundle of letters will drop through the door, many of which were supposed to be delivered during December. I thought councillors and MPs were supposed to have already intervened some months ago to get this resolved?

Second that! Hope you had a good one all!

What a great idea Malumbu....let's us know how you get on. But wait, as a Lewisham resident it would be a bit pointless you writing to Southwark as you don't actually live in the borough..;-)

Yup, that's your explanation but even you say it is your "understanding" so you're not sure either. Maybe Cllr McAsh can put this to bed once and for all by answering a few questions: 1) Where is the Jan 19 data from (for what purposes was it collected and from which point was it collected as it is not the same location as the Sept 21 monitoring point)? 2) What methodology was used to arrive at the Sept 21 figure? 3) Why does the EDG Central chart say: the Pre-implementation data for Jan 2019 has been adjusted to September 2019 levels to ensure compatibility and what adjustment took place and why? 4) Why was the decision taken to add the EDG Central monitoring point in Sept 21?

Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > redpost Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Why don't you do something positive and submit > an > > FOI request instead of endlessly complaining on > > this forum? > > There is no need to do that - the raw data and > detail on the methodology and analysis is all > freely available on the council website already! > This whole "we need more data" talking point is a > load of old tut. > https://www.southwark.gov.uk/transport-and-roads/i > mproving-our-streets/live-projects/dulwich-review? > chapter=4 But it's not is it....look just three or messages earlier there's a debate going on between myself and Goldilocks as we try to unravel what has been done with the EDG Central numbers - no-one can work it out. Given you are so enlightened by the info shared by the council perhaps you can tell us how the council has gathered the EDG Central data? ........nope didn't think so, this is why the council, none other than the council leader, promised to share the raw data and methodology because without it you can't make sense on how they arrived at their numbers. Nothing has been shared. It seems the only people happy with the level of detail shared are those whose agendas are validated by them. "Hurrah, victory is ours - who cares where the numbers came from or whether they are accurate."

I say "beleive" you say "understanding" - you see nobody knows and by releasing the reports without the back-up detail the council has just allowed us all to come to our own conclusions as they have not provided the transparency to back up their report. I did read somewhere that the Jan 19 site is in a different location to the Sep21 location, perhaps Cllr McAsh could confirm. It would also be good to get some clarity on how the Jan 19 and Sep19 figures were arrived at - what is modelling, what is actual data from comparable locations as by adding that additional site in Sept21 there may be an element of double-dipping going on in the conclusions.

A lot of data has been adjusted and the EDG Central chart carries the caveat that: Pre-implementation data for Jan 2019 has been adjusted to September 2019 levels to ensure compatibility All the other charts say: Pre-implementation data has been adjusted to Sep19 levels to ensure compatibility Now it might all be completely justifiable but the complete lack of communication and transparency from the council on this (unless you are some of the select insider groups being briefed on it) means there are questions that need to be answered. I think it is why Cllr Williams promised to share the methodology and raw data - which of course has yet to happen.

SE22_2020er Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > James James James - what on earth do you think > you're doing - are you mad?! Just because schools > have broken up and you've got a few free minutes > on your hands - don't get involved!!! > > There are several different people (I resist the > urge to write "oddballs") who have posted over > 1000 times on this thread alone. They have > somehow managed to keep this "conversation" going > for 283 pages and I fear that they're just getting > going! They will ensnare you, twist your words > and their tenacity knows no bounds. > > Honestly - for your own mental health stay away > and let the madness continue unabated. > > Escape whilst you still have the chance - or at > least ask to meet them face-to-face and watch as > they drift into the shadows! :-) Proof is you ever needed it that some members of the pro-LTN lobby don?t want the council engaging with anyone other than themselves??. #manyatruewordsaidinjest P.S. One Dulwich, the Dulwich Alliance and the Melbourne Grove traders would happily jump at the opportunity to meet face to face?.they have all asked numerous times but any time a councillor goes to that area they apparently get whisked into pro-LTN supporting houses along Melbourne Grove.

Legal I believe the EDG Central data from Jan 19 was from a different location (has the council clarified where it was?) and then was "adjusted" to create Sept 19 numbers. That adjustment seems to have been adding MG numbers to EDG numbers to create a much bigger number of cars to deliver a "reduction" in numbers compared to new Sept 21 data from the new site on EDG Central that had not been previously monitored. But it looks like this is based on modelling rather than actual data as the council charts clearly show no data was collected at the EDG Central point in Sept 19 and there is a disclaimer to that effect on the EDG Central slide. If you use the Jan 19 figures alone from the old monitoring point then there has been no reduction. The creation of the EDG Central monitoring point seems to have only been done to create the narrative for the U-turn as it seems odd adding it in so late into the process and going to such an effort to create the Sept 19 figures. I don?t think the council has done this anywhere else have they? Perhaps Cllr McAsh or one of the council's spokespeople from Melbourne Grove would like to clarify as it is beyond confusing...;-)

Legal - I think you hit the nail on the head. The council are forced to consult (which is a sorry state of affairs to start with and probably shows they would prefer not to - and this is, of course, not just a Southwark thing). Sometimes, when the people agree with the council the council heralds this as a great victory - "thanks for your feedback, we listened and we delivered" and when you look at Southwark's consultation it is littered with examples of this. Of course it becomes more tricky when the people don't agree with you and that's where we are with the Dulwich LTN consultation process. It is clear that the council's methodology is incredibly confusing, their data collection random, sporadic and unsatisfactory and they are having to piece together a positive story from a thousand different sources. Even Cllr McAsh seems to be confused by the rational and collection of data for EDG Central and it's magical appearance to help justify the council U-turn. I hear some are submitting FOIs in relation to this so maybe over time the truth will out. The council has failed, spectacularly, at communication with its constituents over this and let's hope they learn their lesson. As I have said before they got away with it for years but now their every move is being scrutinised. It is also telling that a few people (I suspect the closed street resident groups) are being briefed on said data and collection and there seems to be a co-ordinated and concerted effort to try and get the story out there that this is some sort of victory. It seems that the very worst of Westminster politics is being deployed in local area politics too. I too plan to look at the claims for the EDG Bermuda Triangle - nice name by the way - as, whilst I understand the rational for fewer cars cutting down Melbourne Grove I don't get that they were all going along EDG. It definitely is something that needs lots of eyes on it and scutiny of how the council arrived at the Sept 19 inflated numbers given there was no monitoring then.

Artemis Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > What are Rockets? options, in your view, ed_pete, > given that Southwark asked for our opinions via > consultations and interminable follow up feedback > requests, and have roundly ignored all of them, as > well as failing to take account of the vast bulk > of the Equality Impact Assessment? If you can > suggest any way in which Southwark will listen to > the majority of respondents, I?m sure we?d love to > hear it. > > In my view, Rockets? integrity is far from > undermined - he/she is continuing to ask questions > which many of us would like answered. I for one > would like to understand what the point of a > consultation was if the views of the majority are > not followed. You can argue the semantics of > ?what is democracy? as much as you like, but if we > weren?t to expect that the majority view would > prevail, the consultation seems to have been a > waste of valuable time, money and resource, paid > for by our own council tax. Is that acting in the > best interests of constituents? I would suggest > not. If the council begins to treat consultations as a box ticking exercise which have no bearing on what they do then we are all in big trouble. And on the subject of protest I think a lot of people come on here because the council has shut down all other routes that would normally be available to have your say - for example there are no public meetings to discuss the measures, the online meetings they organise are now tightly managed (removing comments section etc) to ensure they try to control the narrative. And as Cllr McAsh has demonstrated time and time again here they divide and conquer by saying "sorry, you don't live in my ward so I can't help you" and when you go to your own ward councillor they say "ah, I can't help you because those measures are in Cllr McAsh's ward"! ;-) For example I would love to know from Cllr McAsh why the decision was taken to suddenly put monitoring in on EDG Central - we had been told for ages that no monitoring could go in on Underhill Road because there "weren't enough monitoring strips" and yet MG can get some at short notice? Additionally, it was Cllr McAsh who did say that the measures could only be deemed a success if all roads experienced a reduction in traffic and it is clear from EDG that that is definitely not the case.

Well this is what they wrote in some of the materials they sent out.... Aims of this engagement We want to get the clearest possible picture of what people living in the wider Dulwich area and those further afield who travel through Dulwich think about the Streetspace measures that were implemented in 2020. We also want to find out what measures they would like to see in the future. This feedback, combined with other information such as road monitoring and data analysis, will help the council decide what to keep, what to change, and what to remove. Consultation process We have to pause some of our communications during the pre-election period from 22 March to 6 May, in the run up to the Mayor of London and Greater London Assembly elections, but will be in touch directly after that with more information so everyone knows how they can have their say. An eight-week full public consultation process will commence in May to understand local views on the measures detailed above. We will write to every household in the LTN areas plus all addresses on both sides of boundary roads. You will be able to take part in the consultation online or if you don?t use a computer you will be able to receive paper copies of the consultation documents so you can respond by post. People living outside or adjacent to this area can also register their interest in the consultation. And the art of protest is not to give up despite how the odds are being stacked against you....don't expect change if you don't fight for it...........;-)

Jenijenjen Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Rockets Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > I suppose that depends on which side of the > fence > > you stand on doesn't it? ;-) > > > > On one side you have a small group of people > > lobbying for closures who got listened to and > on > > the other side a larger group who didn't want > the > > closures who didn't get listened to. > > > > If smaller groups of people are able to sway > and > > influence the democratic process is that a good > > thing or a bad thing? Look at what happened in > > Melbourne Grove, the council suggested changes > and > > did a U-turn following lobbying by people from > > Melbourne Grove. > > > > Is that fair, especially when so many local > > residents have had their views and input > roundly > > ignored by the council and have been treated as > > some sort of annoyance? > > > Here we go again, in a bit of a tight spot so pose > an emotive question to divert attention. Fairness > has nothing to do with yours and others? claims > that Southwark have ignored the democratic > process. Not sure I was in a tight spot - I was just trying to show you a different take on your view. How did the majority who responded against the closures have their views actioned? You obviously think it is fair (I suspect because you are probably getting what you want) others don't think it is fair. That's not emotive that's fact. Another fact is the way Southwark treats ALL residents is absolutely about fairness. Is it For The Many, Not the Few or For The Few, Not The Many? At this point the overwhelming evidence is that if you have the ear of the council and are part of their inner clique you get what you want - regardless of what the majority of residents think (and I refer you to the OHS, CPZ and LTN consultations for overwhelming proof).

I suppose that depends on which side of the fence you stand on doesn't it? ;-) On one side you have a small group of people lobbying for closures who got listened to and on the other side a larger group who didn't want the closures who didn't get listened to. If smaller groups of people are able to sway and influence the democratic process is that a good thing or a bad thing? Look at what happened in Melbourne Grove, the council suggested changes and did a U-turn following lobbying by people from Melbourne Grove. Is that fair, especially when so many local residents have had their views and input roundly ignored by the council and have been treated as some sort of annoyance?

Per the Local Government Associations' guidelines on consultations: Consultation is technically any activity that gives local people a voice and an opportunity to influence important decisions. It involves listening to and learning from local people before decisions are made or priorities are set. It would be that democratic process..........

first mate Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Well Rah I believe they have eroded the democratic > process and so do many others. As I said, LTNs are > a case of the 'Emperor's New Clothes'. > > We'll just have to agree to disagree as neither > will seemingly convince the other. I suspect many > will now focus on getting the current incumbents > voted out in May...not so far off. They consulted, got a response they didn't want to hear and then made the decision they wanted from the beginning by ignoring the majority. That's why so many people are upset with them - that's not the democratic process they claimed they would follow at the outset of this. Time and time again they have manipulated the process to their own ends but come May there is nothing they can do to manipulate the result and people will finally have their chance to have their say.

exdulwicher Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > But Ex- as someone who works in the industry would > you be happy to put your name and reputation > against the data, methodology and manner in which > the council has handled this LTN process? > > The data seems to broadly stack up against most > other LTN stuff. I don't doubt that there's a few > inaccuracies in it, especially early on when > monitoring has only just gone in but do note that > it's also offset against the radical shift in > travel patterns over the last 18 months. To a > certain extent it's also dependent on what (if > any) monitoring has been done before that to form > the baseline. > > Methodology - well it's all fairly standard stuff. > Traffic counters, pollution monitoring, trendlines > from TfL. I mean there's nothing in there that's > massively radical, it's not like they sent the > Hamlet kids out into the road and asked them to > keep track of things. > > Engagement - most councils are crap at this. > That's partly because most stuff they do, very few > people give a toss. You might get a few complaints > if you move bin day or bump up the charge to > remove garden waste or there's significant change > to the social care but the critical thing is that > all of those are limited to a small % of the > population and it's relatively easy to deal with > on a case by case basis. > > Traffic (and especially parking) - well if you > want to cause a riot, just say you're going to > remove a parking space. Everyone will pile on. > Councils rarely know how best to respond to this > and a lot of the response is on an emotional level > which is far more challenging to deal with. > Again, factor in stuff like working-from-home, > staff absenteeism from Covid isolation and the > responses can be delayed which is assumed to be > because they're wondering how to cover things up. > > It isn't because as a general rule cover-ups, > while they sound impressive, require far too much > effort and competence for any level of Government > (including councils) to pull off successfully. > > None of this is unique to Southwark by the way. So you would be happy to stake your reputation on it and would be happy to swap with Cllr Rose? ;-) The council have create one mighty mess with this - divided a community and create lots of local tensions and, at the end of the day, I think a few councillors will, deservedly, lose their seats in May as it has become the only way a lot of people feel they can actually have their say. Maybe it is deliberate by the council, maybe they are a bit incompetent or not equipped to deal with this sufficiently but their reputation has been tarnished by this whole sorry saga.