Rockets

Yes it is very frustrating, especially when you throw in the strike-days too. It does seem ludicrous that for two consecutive weekends there will be no trains along our line and only one weekend out of 4 from the end of June to middle of July.

Earl - honestly, you are starting to embarrass yourself now. Anyone can paste a section of a discussion and make accusations without the context and by posting those supposed offending posts you have validated my point entirely, and made yourself look a bit desperate and daft. Nowhere do I defend SUVs (but I notice how you, probably after reading the posts and realising you don't have any ammo, you have now changed your accusation to be one of "deflecting criticism of SUVs") - I mean you've even been daft enough to post where I say "many SUVs are unnecessary but I am sure there are a variety of reasons why people buy them". Every one of those posts I stand by and are completely in context with the conversations that were happening at the time and do nothing to undermine position but by posting them you do look awfully petty and somewhat obsessed. But, you know, do keep trying....I am sure you can find better ways to spend your time but if it makes you happy keep going....

Earl - in what context did I defend SUVs? And the temporary pavement widening measures were in for so long it was actually hampering traders. If you had been bothered to find something other than things to attack me with you will also read that I was very supportive of segregated cycle lanes, that I felt Lambeth did a much better job facilitating social distancing on pavements than Southwark did and was challenging the council on why they had not installed more bike parking infrastructure on Lordship Lane during the pandemic. Hey, but that doesn't suit your narrative does it - you are starting to look foolish now and seem to want to just pick a fight and are cherry-picking and deliberately misrepresenting a lot of what I, and other people, have said - you're going to have to try a lot harder than that as that tactic is a well worn path. And you have the gall to suggest I am the one spreading misinformation. And you are now misrepresenting what Admin said about threads.....so maybe check back and take a look at their guidance... It is inevitable that this thread will soon be lounged so you can rejoice then, pat yourself on the back for a job well done, but it won't get away from the fact that One Dulwich is engaging with Cllr McAsh - something you all seem to be so terrified of. Personally I think you're just angry because I challenged you on your 40% cycle growth stat that was clearly you spreading mis-information....;-) Come on Ex- you've been on this thread long enough to know I have posted a lot of ideas - some of which you even agreed with so don't get drawn into Earl's negativity rat hole. But there you go throwing climate change denier into the equation - all you have to add is fascist petrol-head Jeremy Clarkson Tory and then you have the full-house of pro-LTN name-calling! Anyone who dares object to the LTNs has had to put up with this childish nonsense for three years and it paints the pro-LTN lobby in a very, very negative light.

DuncanW - completely agree - it's now very much part of the middle-class social circuit. How many shots do you now see on TV with immaculately presented audience members filming themselves during the main sets - it's no longer about immersing yourself in the experience but sharing the experience? One of the key USPs for some of the glamping sites dotted around the perimeter now is that they have hair and make-up artists on site - I am like...WHAT, whatever happened to washing with nothing more than wet wipes for 5 days!!! I remember going to one of the very wet Glastonbury's and marvelling how my friends and I were dressed like extras from Platoon with ponchos, walking boots and hats and seeing groups of girls in heels wading through ankle-deep mud - it was like how did you not know it was going to be like this? I do wonder what a lot of the crowd now make of some of the fields further away from the main stages and whether they immerse themselves in it or look on it like a bit of a Victorian freak show - my motto was always if you haven't thrown yourself into something Victorian Freak Show'esque then you haven't done it properly. Oh but I was heartened to hear the Cider Bus mentioned in dispatches during the coverage is still going strong - I don't even like cider but always seemed to find myself there! Yes, the mobile companies put huge amounts of equipment on site to ensure good connectivity - EE used to sponsor it but Vodafone has taken it on from this year - some of my journalist friends get to go each year as guests of the mobile phone sponsor.

Ah, we're back to the small vocal minority de-positioning again are we.....it seems the pro-LTN playbook is being dusted down again....here we go again....didn't seem to work the first time so I don't suspect it will this time. And Earl I have been very clear on my position on what I think needs to happen over the years on this subject and I think the only way to properly, and fairly, deter car-use is means-tested road pricing. All of your suggestions about removal of on-street car parking, widening of pavements, 24/7 bus lanes, restrictions on super-sized SUVs (something I do agree with I hasten to add) is just the stuff of fantasy as it is utterly impractical in the real world - and a real world, for right or for wrong, that has become so car dependent it's roots are embedded in the infrastructure of the country. The notion as well that current bus delays are being caused by too much traffic might be factually correct but it is actually because many bus lanes have been repurposed to support more cycle infrastructure thus forcing buses to share the road with other vehicles - and this is where I have a big problem as this sort of disruption to other transport methods can only be justified if the transition to cycling is in the 100s if not 1000s of % - it currently stands at 13% growth from 2019 to 2022 - that's not nearly enough and we can't keep blindly following the Will Norman "build it and they will come" mantra - they aren't and they won't. P.S. Why does Will Norman even have Walking in his job title - he seems to care not one jot about that - you only ever seem to see him on a bike or talking about bikes? I do wonder if the anger of many of the posters being directed at One Dulwich is actually meant for Cllr McAsh for daring to entertain them - the council has stoically refused to engage and him doing so seems to have been the trigger for many to go on the attack. The fact that Cllr McAsh is entertaining a discussion and taking a pragmatic approach to this seems to be really angering a lot of pro-LTN supporters - perhaps they know where the skeletons are hidden and what he might find if he goes looking! 😉 Cllr Rose leaving may be the catalyst for change the council has so needed for a long time. Penguin - you are absolutely right - by Southwark's own measure Dulwich was the last place you put an LTN but it became a local councillor vanity project and no-one in the senior echelons of the council had the gumption to see what might the negative implications of the project might be - they allowed themselves to be led by the pro-LTN, pro-cycle lobby. Additionally, if you told me 10 years ago that a Labour council would repeatedly ignore the pleadings of emergency services about their LTNs I would have not believed you - but this is the mess the council got themselves in over this issue, I think the Turney Road closure debacle shows just how out of touch elements of the council are - to even submit that proposal shows they lost all grip on reality - one day we will no doubt find out who was pulling the strings in the background.

Problem is the young and adventurous have the attention span of a gnat nowadays and spend more time staring at their phone than they do listening to music - yet alone going to gigs and exploring new types of music, I heard Tom Hanks speaking recently and he was saying that the big challenge for the film industry was how do you cater for an audience that is made up predominantly of people who can't sit and concentrate on one thing for 90 minutes, who gorge themselves on platforms like Tik-Tok; the music industry is wrestling with it as much as film. As a youngster if I wasn't doing a gig every couple of weeks I felt like I was missing out (and if I ever went to a gig in a venue bigger than the Shepherd's Bush Empire I felt like the band was too commercial!) I keep thinking I will take the kids to Glastonbury but then wonder if they would enjoy it as much I would and whether I am trying to relive past adventures. I think the days of the £150 festival ticket are long gone - standing tickets at one-off stadium gigs cost around that now and so many smaller venues have closed over the years - Astoria, Hammersmith Palais etc - there isn't the breadth of gig options now.

We'll agree to disagree but thanks for taking the time to respond - that's the beauty of debates - you don't have to agree! I will say this though for a group of folks so steadfastly sure you are right about the data and what's been happening you're all seemingly a little tetchy about Cllr McAsh engaging with One Dulwich - which does make me chuckle and suggests you know it's not as clearcut as you would like it to be....all many of us have ever wanted is for the council to engage with all groups who have an opinion, treat everyone equally, and this seems to be, and have been, a big problem for many on the pro-LTN side. Interesting isn't it - the monitoring just happened to end when another council had to admit/was exposed that it had been manipulating the numbers to its (significant) advantage via the placement of the strips (similar strips to those used by Southwark) - but, you know, that's just a co-incidence and the monitoring in Dulwich had to end at some point and the removal of those strips closest to junctions was purely co-incidental....;-) I was saying for a long time before the Enfield disclosure that Southwark had moved a lot of strips closer to junctions to manipulate the readings and I very much suspect I was correct - the one at the junction of Melford had been located between Court Lane and the bus stop near the junction of Upland in the early days of monitoring (how do I know this, because I would meet one of my children at the bus stop after school every day) and the position it was moved to is the slowest moving part of Lordship Lane South due to the choke point approaching Melford towards the Grove Tavern. An accidental error I am sure. In fact I don't know how accurate the map on the dashboard purports to be but the one at Lordship Lane South was never where it is indicated on the map - probably another accidental error I am sure. If that map is anything to go by when so many distinct points are flawed then it often means the overall analysis is likely to be flawed too...if the supporting pillars are flawed then the roof comes tumbling down...eventually

Northern - as I said the devil is in the detail - look beyond the summary page at the charts below the summary - the traffic data analysis interactive charts. Click on the individual streets and looks at the graph trends and look at some of the trends - some are heading upward aren't they? The summary page also has a very interesting use of colour - seemingly orange for any increases below 5% and red for any increases over 5 % yet green for any decrease - even very low decreases - clever use of colour to help the narrative. You "don't think the council has stopped monitoring because"....surely the council should be telling us why they are no longer monitoring - it just stopped, without any warning, no update from Sept 22 and then many of the strips removed. Do they consider it job done, that the measures have now "bedded-in". Without clearly communicating why they stopped they open themselves up for attack - especially given the pressure on other councils who have admitted the data is not accurate. The council should have been publishing the next raft of monitoring data on the dashboard around the time Enfield council had to admit the monitoring strips had been under-counting slow moving vehicles (and admit that their contractors had been deliberately ignoring the manufacturer's usage guidelines when it came to placing them). Given Southwark had moved many of the monitoring strips closer to junctions (see the one that was very close to Melford Road) maybe they decided that they had to stop monitoring and remove the strips in case they were going to have to admit that had been, ahem, accidentally putting them in the wrong places. At the end of the day I reserve the right to be sceptical about anything they do in relation to LTNs because this is the council that: - brought these measures in under the guise of social distancing - initially decided to only monitor within the closed roads (and had to be forced to monitor outside of the closed road) - repeatedly ignored the input from emergency services on immovable barriers and put lives at risk as a result and kept doubling down on it - created a consultation response document that only allowed people to be supportive of the measures - removed monitoring on Underhill Road early in the process even though it was a clear displacement route and refused to monitor it - extended the consultation deadline and sent squads of activists to lobby residents (many of whom were on the Labour party rolodex) into responding - moved monitoring strips closer to junctions to ensure they were in areas of slow moving traffic - created the EDG Central debacle with some bizarre modelling dreamt up by goodness knows who - got angry and aggressive and reduced TFL staff to tears because TFL dared state in a report that congestion was being caused by the Dulwich LTNS and refused to remove it - dreamt up the idea to close Turney Road with a proposal so expensive it was the same as all of the other programmes combined and got laughed out of the room as a result ....to name but a few....and there are no doubt plenty more so there's more than enough to suggest we should trust them about as much as we trust the Tories! 😉 But despite my whining I am happy One Dulwich is getting a hearing with Cllr McAsh and I know a lot of other people are too so I expect we will be hearing more from them over the coming months.

Virtually all is not all though is it - and remember the council (Cllr McAsh in particular) said the measures could only be considered a success if traffic for all was reduced. And the trend in the data in the dashboard (the devil is in the detail and all that) suggests that many other roads were heading toward the red category before the council stopped updating the dashboard and removed many, if not all, of the monitoring strips. These are not doubt some of the many questions that will be put to Cllr McAsh as the engagement with One Dulwich continues - as I have said before what comes of it who knows Cllr McAsh seems to have his heart in the right place and was trying to be pragmatic in the early days of the LTNs but I sense had to toe the party line as the pressure mounted. Only Cllr Burgess seemed to be more vocal in her questioning of the impact on the plans and measures.

This is a shame as I heard it was going to be some sort of eatery....a dentist is very dull! 😉

Earl - no it doesn't - the fact you claim that the dashboard shows that traffic has fallen "as a result of the LTN" shows just how much of the pro-LTN Kool-Aid you have been drinking and how you are moulding information to fit your narrative - something you seem more than happy to accuse others who don't subscribe to your viewpoint. What the the dashboard actually shows is that from around 2022 traffic, in many places, was lower than pre-pandemic levels but has been increasing and, on some roads, close to or exceeding the pre-pandemic levels - the overall direction of travel is an upward trend in traffic levels on many roads monitored during 2022. Of course the means and location of monitoring strips used to collect the data also throws some doubt on whether these numbers are artificially lower due to the sub 10kph issue but that's another discussion completely. In light of this and per the earlier conversation on TFL boundary roads this is also very telling from the dashboard that: Traffic has been rising across Southwark since the end of the 2021 COVID-19 lockdown, and was at 93% of pre-COVID levels in April 2022 at count points in the north of the borough, and above pre-COVID levels on the TfL network near Dulwich. Let's hope Cllr McAsh provides some of the data to fill in the blanks

Earl - really....I did not omit the "It is therefore hard to draw.." line form my original post did I? Come on, you're really clutching now. Do you always take everything spoon-fed to you as fact ? Surely if GPS data was showing a 20% increase in car traffic post LTN measures then you can start to form a conclusion or it certainly warrants further investigation - what Systra wrote is a classic: "move along please there's nothing to see here"? It's a 20% smoking gun! Honestly, spend some time on the data dashboard and look at the direction of travel of all of the car volumes on boundary roads in particular (you may notice the upward trajectory after summer drops) and ask yourself why the council might have stopped monitoring and publishing the data. More roads had been turning red each time they published it. One Dulwich's dialogue with Cllr McAsh may come to absolutely nothing but it is clear it is really worrying the pro-LTN lobby - surely if the results have been as good as they claim then there is nothing to be afraid of and they should be welcoming it?

Earl - you need to do better research - a bit like your claim a few months ago that cycling had increased by 40% much of what you post is unsubstantiated, baseless and parroted from the pro-LTN narrative. You are trying to throw doubt on the sources of the details I posted but they come from Southwark themselves (well the company that they employ to monitor called Systra). You will find the document on the SOuthwark website here (page 11): https://moderngov.southwark.gov.uk/documents/s101515/Appendix C 6 - Dulwich Streetspace FAQs.pdf The 20% rise in car use on the A205 post LTN implementation is interesting isn't it - being based on GPS data is interesting as well as it can't be fudged or manipulated like some other monitoring collection. Interesting too is that the council didn't put any actions in place to further investigate that 20% rise (although interesting that the council narrative did start to change about how A roads are designed for higher volumes of traffic as if boundary roads need to be considered the sacrificial lambs for LTNs) - there are huge swathes of Dulwich LTN boundary roads that have never properly been monitored (A205, Underhill Road etc) - can you hazard a guess as to why that might be? Also your claim that the LTN data for Dulwich "consistently shows a drop in car use" is also unsubstantiated, baseless and wrong. Anyone who looks at the Streetspace dashboard can see for themselves the patterns and trends - and this completely negates the council's promise of reducing traffic for all - interesting again that, since the trend for traffic on the dashboard started to worsen, the council has stop providing updates and has removed most of the monitoring strips - again, no explanation from the council as to why: https://www.southwark.gov.uk/transport-and-roads/improving-our-streets/live-projects/streetspace/traffic-data-analysis All of the above is why One Dulwich want to council to share more data and do more rigorous analysis because the picture is far from complete and basing conclusions on conjecture, hearsay or what you hope is happening is not a true reflection of what is actually happening. As I said before politicians like nothing more than to reset and recalibrate when they can blame someone else for previous failings and it may well be that Cllr Rose's departure is the catalyst for a long overdue reset on how the council manage this - bottom line is the current LTNs will not be removed but we can all hope those who are living with the LTN displacement get fairer treatment from the council moving forward.

There is more than anecdotal evidence about the A205 and the impacts of the LTNs - this from the Systra monitoring report - the 20% increase in cars from GPS data would be consistent with the anecdotal evidence. This is why One Dulwich want Cllr McAsh to find the incomplete/missing data as the picture is currently only telling part of the story. No traffic count data has been collected on the section between Tulse Hill and Forest Hill. A direct comparison of the changes in traffic volumes is therefore not possible.  Turning count data at the junction of Dulwich Common / Lordship Lane suggests a negligible (1%) change in traffic volumes on Dulwich Common compared to pre-scheme.  Telematics data (based upon estimating volumes of traffic using GPS data from cars) suggests that volumes of cars only may have increased by over 20% on Dulwich Common between Croxted Road and Lordship Lane. It does not record LGVs or HGVs.  There are no bus priority measures on the section of the A205 between Croxted Road and Lordship Lane, therefore bus journey times could be expected to be correlated to traffic volumes. Journey times were relatively stable, mostly showing no large change from preCOVID journey times for much of 2021, until a large jump in some weeks in June 2021. The scale of this increase suggests it may be due to a factor other than the volume of traffic alone. It is therefore hard to draw a firm conclusion about how traffic volumes on the South Circular have changed since the implementation of the Streetspace measures.

Ha ha....definitely hypocritical in my book! Also glad to see you have jumped right into the "paint someone as a right-wing fascist if they don't agree with you" mantra from the pro-LTN handbook....sorry you're really going to have to try a bit harder than that. I notice this is now a "hot topic" on the forum - that must be galling to those who claim no-one is interested or wants to talk about it anymore..... Bottom-line from the reactions by many on here is that the fact that councillors are engaging with One Dulwich is really annoying a few people - perhaps they should call Cllr McAsh and ask for the conversation to be lounged, sorry I mean don't engage in any form of debate with anyone who dares question the LTNs!! And Earl research suggests LTNs reduce road injuries, reduce car use and increase active travel INSIDE LTNs - I think one of the things One Dulwich is pushing for is the missing data from the council to determine whether that is happening outside the LTNs too that might be impacting the health of people who live, breathe or are educated on those roads - surely that is a good thing? Cllr McAsh always said that LTNs could only be considered a success if everyone benefitted so good on him for picking this up - let's see where it leads. Local, regional and national politics were one of the reasons LTNs became a thing during Covid and those same things are the reason that will probably spell the end to them as well - it's started already with the comments from Sadiq.

Ha ha...well maybe we/I stop characterising those behaviours when those behaviours stop being the go to position by many of the people who have liked your comment - you know who you are!!! And I must admit your calling out of irksome characterisations is massively undermined when you use an irksome characterisation to make your point......somewhat hypocritical don't you think?

Anyone know what is going into the old bank in Dulwich Village? Definitely work going on inside it.

Oh my...the LTN lounge police are really showing their colours aren't they - it's really quite sad that people think this type of behaviour is acceptable nowadays as they try to suppress discussion just because they are happy with (and no doubt directly benefitting from) the measures? How they all jump in and try to say "oh this is not about East Dulwich" yet never police any other thread that talks about issues not immediately and directly linked to SE22 postcodes only. And Jeni - the only link I have with One Dulwich is that I signed up to their email list and one of those 2000+ dots on the map of Dulwich is my registration - beyond that I have never engaged with them so if you are trying to paint me as one of the people behind it you are gravely mistaken. Perhaps you might want to ask the same question of some of the residents groups on Melbourne Grove and groups like Clean Air Dulwich about their relationships with, and discussions with, the council! Bottom line is that there are many on this forum who hate to hear that their beloved LTNs may not be as universally popular as they think and are terrified that groups like One Dulwich exist and are now, finally, getting a hearing with the council and what that might mean for their nice quiet streets. They are terrified of anything that might level the playing field because they know what the outcome is if the council starts actually properly analysing what is fair and equitable to everyone. With Cllr Rose leaving this might be the chance for the council to repair the damage she, and her team, did and rebuild some bridges with many parts of the community.

I think that is what happens when people lobby to have threads lounged. There always used to be one thread where everything could live on LTNs but that has now been buried and so really all that is happening is those that spend their time trying to get something lounged are just reaping what they sow and admins rules on needing dedicated news etc means there can no longer be a single discussion thread as there was before because it gives those who lobby to get things lounged to say it has gone off topic from the title.

I think the problem is that there is now such a huge gap between older more established artists who have a huge back catalogue of work and newer artists. The music industry has become more fickle as its audience is more interested in individual Tik-Tok tracks than albums and because no one can afford to tour (unless you are a well established artist already) then artist shelf-life is greatly diminished. Headliners need a body of work that everyone knows - just look at the reaction the Foos got in their surprise slot this year. Also, there are so many people going to Glastonbury now that you need a huge name to fill the hill in front of the Pyramid stage. I remember going in 2004 and Elbow were playing the Pyramid stage mid-afternoon and there was hardly anyone there (which was good because we could get to the front) but then James Brown on the Sunday at a similar time was rammed. I also used to go to Coachella and so much of Glastonbury seems now to have adopted some of the more negative elements of that festival - where being seen there or saying you were there has become more important than actually being there - the negative effect of social media. I suspect Elton will go done as one of the all time great headline acts and I do wish I had been there - in the same way that I was glad I saw Bowie, James Brown and Van Morrison over the years.

What must be really galling for the pro-lobby is that three years after it was set-up One Dulwich is finally getting traction. Now Cllrs McAsh, Newens and Leeming May only be paying lip service by meeting but with this meeting, funding for future projects shelved, Sadiq blaming Boris and urging residents to challenge bad LTNs there is a chink in the LTN armour and maybe, with the mayoral elections fast approaching Labour HQ are concerned transport (LTNs, ULEZ expansion, TFL funding) issues could become part of the narrative and maybe they will start listening to and addressing resident concerns. And remember One Dulwich only came about because there was a section of the Dulwich community (2100 postcode identified sign-ups) that felt they were being ignored by the council in favour of those residents and others who had vested interests in seeing LTNs rollout and be seen to be successful. Maybe it will come to nothing but it is encouraging Cllr McAsh is engaging and promising answers.

As I pointed out to you it does relate to East Dulwich….but you know don’t let the truth get in the way of a good story and all that….keep trying….

Oh dear Bels - you really are getting desperate aren't you? What on earth are you scared of? Does it annoy you so much that people may have an opinion that differs from yours that you feel the need to supress that viewpoint? These attempts to get things lounged constantly reflect very poorly on you and the other pro-LTN lobbyist "lounge-police". Here's a piece of advice: If it bores you so much try not to engage. P.S. Last time I looked East Dulwich Grove was in East Dulwich, Cllr McAsh is still the Goose Green councillor (a ward within East Dulwich) and the incomplete data relates to many roads in East Dulwich - so the discussions do, in fact, relate to East Dulwich. Maybe you want to retract your brazen attempt to get the thread lounged?

Problem is that the music industry is in turmoil and there is a massive dearth of current "headline" talent but the main stages at Glastonbury have always been about heritage acts (in some shape or form). But look beyond the Pyramid and Other Stage and there was a plethora of diverse musical talent on show (the schedule this year was phenomenal for the choice) - but that was always the point (certainly from my experience at the event in previous years) the things you discovered by accident when wandering between the two or three headline acts you had to see on the main stages. Problem is the event is so painfully white, middle-class and middle-aged - Dulwich is always very quiet during Glasto weekend!!! 😉 I always laugh when I used to see cars parked in the Dulwich area with their Glastonbury car park stickers in the windows like a badge of honour - most people tear it off the moment they leave. There were a couple of cars that still had the stickers from many years - like aircraft kills painted onto the side of a WW2 fighter! I had friends who even kept their wrist-bands on for weeks after the event finished - I was like, really......who are you trying to impress? And remember they had to increase security at the behest of the local council because the fence-jumping had become such a problem, they reckon over 100,000 jumped the fence in 2000 and they cancelled the 2001 event so they could improve security.

I do wonder what will happen when the Lordship Lane contra-flow comes into effect as this will overlap the A205 works at Croxted for a few days at least. Pretty sure Crystal Palace Road will be used as a diversionary route by many during the 5 months of work.