Rockets

The council are back, trying again with the Dulwich Village changes https://consultations.southwark.gov.uk/environment-leisure/dulwich-village-phase-3-design/

To be fair Malumbu the thread is about 20 mph in Southwark so that is what is being discussed. Maybe have a word with Earl too as they were the one that took us on that kinetic magical detour....;-)

The same thing happened last year and Cllr McAsh had to intervene and get the cleaning teams out. Are there different cleaning teams for the parks vs the streets as I am forever seeing leaf clearing teams in Dulwich Park yet never a sign of them on Lordship Lane (where the need and risk is greater).

Wrong again Earl, that wasn't me. Someone else started that element and you were the first to wade in with your defence on why 20mph should not apply to cyclists so your role in creating this discussion point is far, far greater than mine. I just took umbrage with your ludicrous kinetic energy justification and tried to ascertain whether you thought speed limits for roads should apply to cyclists. By the way you still have not clearly articulated why you think cyclists should not have to observe speed limits. Penguin I think you have hit the nail on the head. Spot on.I The only time licensing comes in is when so many people have switched from cars to bikes that government need to find new ways to prop-up Road Fund tax. And as we have seen in other threads there is absolutely no chance of that for the foreseeable future.

I wonder if their row was because there are too many of them now for a small area and the CPZs are not delivering the council promised pot of gold! 😉

There is a speed limit it just doesn't apply to bikes. But you're still not answering why you think it shouldn't apply. I don't think that is a good comparison. I don't want to be hit by either but I am really not sure because at 10 mph with a car I actually fancy my chances to cushion the blow on the bonnet but a bike travelling at 20mph - there's an awful lot of pointy bits of metal that can do me a lot of harm at that speed and anything metallic hitting you at 20mph is going to do you harm and cause you to move. The death I highlighted earlier was a bike travelling at 18mph. I am sorry but the more i think about it your kinetic energy argument is utterly ridiculous and naively simplistic because all you need is for anything to hit you with enough kinetic energy to cause you to fall and that can cause harm. The impact might not kill you but hitting your head on the pavement might (especially if you are old or frail). I said it does not make sense to have 20mph everywhere (is that what you mean by default), in certain areas it makes perfect sense but in others less so. The whole point of speed limits is they are based on the road situation and condition. Do you agree with the Welsh government's 20mph default on all roads that used to be 30mph?

This might explain why there are so many parking wardens around Lordship Lane, I saw a flock of three of them heading off in different directions from outside The Palmerston. https://southwarknews.co.uk/area/southwark/traffic-warden-contract-worth-11-5-million-branded-appalling-waste-of-money-after-southwark-councils-cpz-u-turn/

But Earl, again, why do cyclists need to go faster than the speed limit? Why won't you answer that question? And your argument about kinetic energy is accurate but utterly non-sensical and an absolutely ludicrous position that displays a blinkered ignorance/arrogance/entitlement that people often see from the pro-cycle lobby (and a trait a lot of people really dislike) - a bike still carries kinetic energy and can still harm/kill you. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/sep/18/cyclist-charlie-alliston-jailed-for-18-months-over-death-of-pedestrian

Earl, still waiting to hear one good reason from you why cyclists shouldn't comply to road speeds? Seems perfectly reasonable to me and is hardly an infringement of their basic human rights. Earl, did you draw the short-straw to try and take the argument to us? Keep going it's really good fun and allows us to drag up a lot of historical and data-based facts to counter your arguments 😉

"Oversight" was the way the council categorised many of the "errors" that happened during this process. And remember the council only started monitoring streets inside the LTNs when the measures went in and had to be forced to monitor streets outside of them.....

Ahem...I refer my honourable friend to a very public spat between our local councillors and TFL about the root cause of bus delays along Croxted Road and Herne Hill as just one example.....

Earl, I repeat...do you mean the temporary widening implemented with plastic bollards outside of Moxons? By the way, looks like the council just completed their latest consultation...look for the results of which to be used to justify their next grand scheme.....;-) "You told us....."

Are you talking about the temporary widening measures outside of Moxons? If you go back further into my posts you'll see that I was very critical of Southwark for not pavement widening soon enough (based on how quickly Lambeth had done), supportive when they did finally do so on Lordship Lane but critical again when they didn't put cycle parking infrastructure in place and again critical when they left the widening measures in long after lockdown as a tool to limit car parking. I might also remind you that a lot of the Dulwich LTN's was brought in as a Covid measure which was utterly laughable and made no sense (unless you desperately needed a reason to railroad your plans through without proper consultation or scrutiny).

But Earl, the data shows exactly that - you may not want to believe it but that's what it very much shows. Nope not at all. But there needs to be a reset of priorities. What they have done thus far is not working and is not attracting enough people to cycling - they cannot keep following the same flawed policy. They have built it but they are not coming and I am not sure they have ever stopped to understand why.

Conspiracy is how you might describe it but not a description I would use - a convenient oversight perhaps - there were a few of those during the whole LTN debacle.....;-) You haven't answered my question on Lordship Lane/Melford Road - do you honestly think the numbers submitted for the Lordship Lane South monitoring point are "99% accurate" on the basis of the position of the strips?

But there should be speed limits for bikes using roads. 20 mph is set, primarily, on the basis of reducing the risk of accidents - the same risk of accident applies to cyclists as much as cars and other road vehicles. Granted the outcome is a lot worse with a bigger vehicle but the risk of accident remains the same. In the same way the risk of an accident is higher if you don't stop at a red-light. The higher the speed the more risk of accident and a higher risk of injury - and that applies to bikes as much as it applies to an HGV. I really can't see why you are so opposed to it - few cyclists go over 20 mph and those that do would just need to go a bit slower. Cna you give me one good reason why cyclists should not adhere to the speed limit?

I think there has been an increase in cycling over the last 20 years in London (but it still only accounts for a low single figure % of daily transport usage in London), that Covid provided another big boost that was seized on by the pro-cycle lobby as proof that the cycling revolution was here (and to secured huge amounts of funding for cycling) and yet that Covid growth has all but evaporated and London is functioning less efficiently as a city as cycle infrastructure is causing huge disruption to buses etc and the numbers of new cyclists are nowhere near the number needed to justify/mitigate the disruption. Anything above that you disagree with?

Because from day one of LTN's the data monitoring, collection and analysis has been (in my mind deliberately) flawed to give inaccurate data to try to convince people that the measures are effective and delivering against their stated objectives. But can you claim Melford Road is 99% accurate when for huge parts of the day it is under the very condition that makes the monitoring inaccurate...and why did that monitoring strip get moved from nearer Court Lane...do you want to take a guess? 😉

Where did I mention anything about licensing - you can police cycle speed without the need for licensing - firstly you make it offence and that eliminates a lot of it straight away? I just want cyclists to follow the rules of the road - is that too much to ask?

Earl, sometimes the answers you are looking for are right in front of your eyes. The manufacturers advise to not place the pneumatic counters close to junctions or areas of slow moving traffic....which is exactly where councils monitoring for LTNs did place them.....I refer you to Melford Road......

Earl, I suggest you take time to re-read the whole thread again.....

Yes and I don't know why there would be any rational person who could disagree. If the speed limit of a road is 20mph it should be for anything using it - that's just common sense and I don't know why cyclists seem to think that the rules of the road don't/shouldn't apply to them. And this kinetic energy argument is accurate but ever so slightly non-sensical and ludicrous - it's a bit like asking if you would prefer to be hit in the face by a light-weight or heavy-weight boxer - I would prefer not to be hit by either to be honest! Go take a walk around Dulwich Park around school drop off time and, anyone who does it, will know that awful moment when you hear the bone-shaking crash of a wooden-boxed cargo bike hurtling towards you from behind laden with two kids (who always look like they are clinging on for dear-life!) bombing through the park on their way to school - there's a hell a of of pen-up kinetic energy in one of those I can tell you and they aren't observing the dead slow/5 mph speed limit! It's statements like this which are just hilarious.......but they still pose danger don't they.....are they danger-free?

I think you are wrong and I think there is more evidence to back my summation than yours I am afraid.

Earl, do you think speed limits should apply to bikes?

The majority of which was collated via pneumatic tubes which has since been found to have a major flaw - incorrect readings when used in slow moving traffic.