Rockets

I think, given the nature of the signage, it should state when the school street is operational or not. Otherwise it is misleading. In fact, in other boroughs there are signs that call that out - there are some in Beckenham that make it very clear when they operate, calling out term-time only.

Hey @Earl Aelfheah so the 20m thing is a thing then after all...I won't to say I told you so but I....you were wrong. Southwark supplied a still frame but I am very reluctant to share it here as it would identify my car to my sworn enemies and such is the anti-Rockets sentiment expressed by many on here I fear for reprisals! 😉 Of course I dont but by heck I am not going to let anyone see the make, model and colour of my car on this forum for fear they identify where I live! .

So you don't agree then @Earl Aelfheah that the Overhill Road junction is a very real example of a "money-making exercise"? Too many it is very much a sign of how councils, like Southwark, are laying traps for drivers in an effort to raise revenue. Clearly, since counculs were given more powers there is an increasing problem of councils abusing said powers.

They do if you appeal......the document is their guidance for when to say yes or no to an appeal. It's all very clear no matter what you might try to claim.

Two wrongs don't make a right @malumbu and if you come in on a ticket to end the sleaze you'd better be whiter than white. I suspect a local Dulwich estate agent is preparing to be thrown under the bus.....given the "new evidence has come to light and being assessed by the PM and the independent adviser" news from the PM's spokesperson! Shall we have a wager on which estate agent she went to? 😉 Anyone also want a wager on whether this story was leaked by someone in Southwark council?

Not so fast @malumbu. This is not a nothing to see here moment (and for some of us on the forum it is local as her house is in Dulwich)- the BBC explain why, have a read: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvgkvd3jg2no Southwark's role in this will be key - did they alert her, will they fine her (as they have done with other private landlords), was it someone in Southwark who leaked it? This government came in on a ticket of integrity and this type of thing is very damaging to that message - especially in light of other similar issues Starmer's front-bench has had - it cannot be one rule for them and one rule for us. @Dulwichway you know you're in political trouble when videos like that appear within hours of a story breaking.....and goes viral.

I had always presumed they were in operation out of term time too but when I looked on the Southwark website realised they only operate during term. The fact the signs do not call this out is probably another underhand tactic deployed by the council. Surely the signs have to call out when they are operating?

I did appeal it and sent documentation from TFL showing how they "police" the issue from TFL's own guidance and demonstrated how I merely crossed the white line whilst turning left (Southwark's own photo was my evidence) . Southwark's (or Southwark's revenue collecting entity third party company) response: we police things differently. In fact here is their response: We have carefully considered what you have said but we have decided not to cancel your Penalty Charge Notice (PCN). We sent you a PCN because our camera evidence shows your vehicle in a bus lane at a time when only buses are allowed there. When you are driving alongside a bus lane and you wish to take a left turning up ahead, you must not enter the bus lane too soon and drive along it before reaching the turning. Instead, you need to turn across the bus lane at the point - usually level with the turning - where its line has changed from solid to broken or where arrows on the road show where to turn. We have reviewed the CCTV camera evidence and accept that you turned left. However, you entered the bus lane too soon, meaning that you were in the bus lane longer than necessary. Please be advised that the Bus Lane was not enforced by TFL, therefore the information that you have provided does not apply to the bus lane in contravention, which is enforced by Southwark Council. The information I sent was from TFL that said that drivers get a 20m grace period when turning left into a junction across a bus lane. A representation is made on the basis that the driver had to temporarily drive in a bus lane, in order that they could turn left to access a side road or driveway. View the evidence to validate the representation. If the vehicle was in the bus lane for a distance of over 20 metres, reject. OR if distance within the Bus Lane is less than 20 metres, accept. It's the very same stretch of road...in fact, if the section of Lordship Lane in front of the shops opposite the Grove Tavern is Southwark (which I think it is) then every time a car goes to park in front of the shops then Southwark can issue a fine....pssst don't tell them in case they put a camera there.... So let's play a game of spot the difference....look at Earl's picture. Look how close the bus lane finishes near the apex of the junction. Also note the strategically placed Southwark camera on the lampost beyond the junction. Now look at the (TFL) junction at Underhill (note where the bus lane ends) And now (TFL) Wood Vale. Also note the lack of cameras on any of the lamposts near those junctions... So it is clear that Southwark have made it much easier for people to get fined at the Overhill junction and put a camera in to make sure they do. I did clip the bus lane as I turned left into Underhill. If it was a TFL junction I could have done more than clip it and drive down it for under 20 metres and I would not have got a fine (if I turned left). It is council strategic placements like this that is driving the AA to claim that these are money-making exercises - because clearly they are. Councils are laying traps to drive revenue and I think there is a growing sentiment that such things are not fair (did anyone see the BBC evening news item on PCNs people had got around not having dog poo bags or putting a strawberry stork down a drain based on this article https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gpzxnl7l9o). You clearly know not of what you talk about.......again.....

Seemingly the AA agrees with me that I might have a point and I fell victim to a "money making exercise" - a trap designed by Southwark to raise money - I suspect a lot of other people have fallen victim to it as well. Nearly 10 million PCNs being issued in London does suggest something very awry is going on.....

BBC News - Chancellor admits breaking housing rules by renting out home https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cd04d0yxnrvo One wonders if Southwark will go after her....;-)

No - unclear guidance and road markings between Southwark and TFL over bus lanes. Southwark runs bus lane lines right to a left turn junction and places cameras in front of said junction and fines anyone who touches the line when turning left. TFL stops the bus lane lines well ahead of the junction and gives left turning drivers 10m grace. Drive along Lordship Lane and look at the Overhill and Underhill junctions for comparison. One is Southwark (and probably racking up the fines) and one is TFL. Therein lies the difference and a very real example of how councils are laying revenue generating traps, or as the AA refers to them money-making exercises, for drivers.

Hey @Earl Aelfheah it's not me saying it but the AA..."a money making exercise" - pretty much sums up a lot of the programmes disguised as "promoting active travel" or "in the interests of road safety". The president of the AA, Edmund King, has said: “While there is a need to protect parking spaces and bus lanes from drivers who break rules and make life difficult for other road users, London enforcement that used to be for deterrence is now a money-making exercise for TfL and London councils”. “Sadly, too many drivers, who are certain they did nothing wrong or the road and sign layout was in effect a trap, paid the half-rate within 14 days instead of contesting the PCN. Such is the fear of having to pay fines that are more than a day’s wages and often don’t fit the nature of the offence, such as being one wheel over the line.” Ha ha...one wheel over the line...he must have heard me!

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/ten-million-parking-fines-pcns-london-drivers-b2853591.html

It's also about implementation and the powers given to local authorities to police these things and whether they are doing so in a fair way. The signage for the CPZ on Calton was shocking and clearly designed to trap people. The signage at the entrance of Burbage was not viewable from anyone approaching along Gallery Road And I touched the white line in a bus lane turning onto Overhill and got fined by Southwark whilst if I had done it 100 metres down the road on the TFL road I would not have been fined. Some believe councils are laying traps to generate revenue from motorists.

It seems to many of us that the reason many of these threads exist is because those in power take a very anti-motorcentric view and are not pragmatic in the way these things are rolled out. I mean even @Earl Aelfheah kind of agreed..... Come on @exdulwicher you're supposed to be an expert on such things and the above comment seems to be deliberately daft - if journeys do take longer can you work out how that might have a negative economic impact (let me give you a clue - it's not about people sitting in cars driving to work......;-)) The Welsh government bothered to model it....and one wonders if TFL did too.... I don't think anyone suggested it was a money saving scheme....it probably makes a few bob mind you....

Come on @exdulwicher that's what's called doing an @Earl Aelfheah...in the context of the discussion your usage does not stand up to any level of scrutiny!

Hang on @Earl Aelfheah where do I state there is an economic impact?You're doing your twisting what was said thing again and misrepresenting what people write. May I suggest you go back and have another read. Did I just not pose a question based on the economic assessment the Welsh government did and asked whether TFL and/or the mayor had done one as well?

Err, some of those links are tenuous at best and read more like a "we think someone once said this so therefore it must be true". Click the link on the 20mph does not increase journey times one.......;-) This is why I am asking if anyone has seen that analysis as the Welsh did it and came up with a figure. No, you and I were both saying that imposing 20mph on the A205 seemed a little bit of overkill - or have you changed your position now?

I notice cameras have also gone up in front of Goodrich School at the junction of Uplands pointing towards Dunstans. Are they planning on there as well? Of course they do....cos it's all about the revenue.....does that enable them to drive through the street during school street operation hours I presume?

Let's be honest being aware of signage and seeing signage are two very different things and there are plenty of good local examples where the council has placed signage in places where drivers would not necessarily see it - the entrance to Burbage Road at the apex of the junction with Dulwich Village and the pathetic signage "alerting" drivers to a CPZ on Calton - which I hasten to add in the latter case the council admitted were not fit for purpose and changed after complaints. If you're having to stop to read road traffic signage then the signage is not fit for purpose.

Do you have the link? Always be deeply suspicious of infographics that have not link to the source. I am not sure how TFL can get away with the source data quote: *This infographic uses statistics from research into 20mph limits and 20mph zones by TfL, DfT, independent academics, city councils and transport consultancies That wouldn't pass the legal bar the company I work for sources on infographics.....and when you start following the links on the last page of the infographics you realise the claims are headline claims are tenuous at least..... @Earl Aelfheah you and I actually agreed that the 20mph limit on the A205 didn't seem to be the most pragmatic approach and I am not arguing it's poor investment just whether TFL or the Mayor's office did the same type of economic analysis that the Welsh government did as there will be an economic impact of slowing traffic - regardless of whether TFL claims that there are "negligible" impacts on journey times - it would be interesting to see what "negligible" actually means as that infographic seems heavy on propaganda and light on the detail. Very much an infographic aimed at those who love a headline stat but don't bother to look at the data behind it....

I presume they will still be allowing buses to use the street when it is in operation?

It may also have been a "regroup" where the TSG move to another location to muster in case they are needed....a "regroup" may also be used when they are, ahem, hungry and need to get to a feeding station. The old East Dulwich police station used to be a feeding and watering hole and was often used as such and mobile units would rush there at feeding time!

BBC News - Family pledges to rebuild ski shop wrecked by fire https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4gz77qpex2o

But surely there must have been an impact assessment done by TFL, the Mayor's office and local authorities on what rolling out blanket 20mph would have in both positive and negative terms - clearly the Welsh government did it? It's interesting because earlier this year TFL put out a press release entitled: Powerful new long-term TfL research shows 20mph speed limits save lives on London’s roads Does anyone have a link to this particular piece of research as it is not linked on the TFL press release website? Interestingly the research was focused on 150 20mph zones implemented between 1989 and 2013 and I was interested in determining where those 20mph zones were. Interestingly the press release does call out other positive impacts on road safety during that period of time and says that 20mph was not the sole contributory factor and that this was factored into the research. Does anyone know where that report can be found, normally a link can be found on the press release website of TFL but there isn't one for this one and even AI cannot find it?