Rockets

@exdulwicher but it is ashared use route isn't it and the TMO will state the speed limit for all vehicles within that won't it? I think you may have to agree that 5mph is the speed limit for bikes in Dulwich Park. Interesting that Friends of Dulwich Park states it does apply to cyclists dont you think - you'd expect them to know wouldn't you? Do you have any evidence 5mph does not apply to bikes in Dulwich Park?

It is a shared-use route with the speed limit set at 5mph and the signage for said shared route is very clear about that. It applies to all vehicles using the shared use route which will have it's own TMO set by Southwark as it is "private" as it is not part of the main carriageway. The same is true if you walk up the shared use route in front of Dulwich College - you'll notice big stencils of bikes every so often with a huge 10 underneath them reminding cyclists that the speed limit is 10 mph. Google AI certainly thinks it is: Yes, a 5mph speed limit is in place for all vehicles within Dulwich Park, and this is generally considered to apply to cyclists and e-bike users as part of efforts to ensure safety for pedestrians in shared spaces. While legal speed limits often only apply to motor vehicles, local park regulations can enforce a 5mph limit for all users. Although some sources state legal, non-motorized speed limits don't apply to cyclists in the same way as cars, within the context of Southwark Council's regulations for Dulwich Park, the 5mph limit is applied to cyclists. Certainly the Friends of Dulwich Park think it is as they cited the fact during the consultation for the cycleway through the park back in 2015. It also came up after a puppy was killed by a cyclist in Dulwich Park a couple of years ago: https://southwarknews.co.uk/featured/exclusive-an-e-bike-killed-our-puppy/ @exdulwicher so maybe you can present any evidence that it doesn't apply - rules are different once you are off the main public highway and on a designated shared use route and I don't think the "speed limits don't apply to us cyclists" argument doesn't work.

Ha ha, that Opinion piece pulls the Mail article apart like I pulled any number of Peter Walker articles apart for their biased, myopic, one-sided reporting! But I think some are missing the point and it goes back to the original article not the Mail's follow-up click-bait piece - and perhaps interestingly enough a news story that also ran on Roadcc that the opinion pieces links to: https://road.cc/content/news/speed-gun-deployed-wandsworth-parks-317353 Wandsworth can enforce the speed limit of 12mph because it is enforceable for cycles - many would have you believe cycles are immune to all speed limits - but they are not. It's whether anyone enforces it. The fact that Wandsworth have been suggests attitudes towards reckless cycling are changing. Of course, some would have you believe the speed limit of 5mph does not apply to cyclists in Dulwich Park but it does. Again, would Southwark ever enforce it - unlikely - but surely if the argument from some is that any time a motorist breaks the rules then they should be punished is applicable to any cyclist in Dulwich Park doing more than 5mph? So if Southwark set speed traps and started issuing PCNs for cyclists doing more than 5mph surely everyone would agree that is reasonable? What we can say is that the opinion piece in Road.cc is full of the usual tropes and name calling and does nothing to suggest the culture-war supposedly being waged on cyclists is one-directional! 😉 And I suspect this will depend massively on when it was filmed because the date of publication was Dec 28th so it could well have been very quiet if it was filmed during the Christmas holidays.

Interesting approach being taken by City of London police. If you get caught jumping a red light on a bike you will get the option of a £50 fine or watching a safety video of someone jumping a red light on a bike and getting hit by a bus (with the permission of the cyclist concerned as she wants to use her awful experience to raise awareness). https://road.cc/content/news/safety-film-option-cyclists-who-run-red-lights-317487 BTW does anyone know how to retrieve cached versions of articles externally or from within a browser as the article above has been heavily edited this morning (seemingly to add Simon Monks commentary) and the original copy had interesting stats on hospital admissions and comments from the police which have now been removed?

Residents on Court Lane doing a great job this morning clearing ice as that is treacherous in parts as well.

Did anyone actually venture in to that place? I recall it always being closed/very uninviting!

But as Southwark have set a speed limit for all vehicles of 5mph on a shared use route off the public highway then that is the speed limit that applies to all vehicles is it not? Well if someone was driving at faster than 5mph on the shared use route then clearly Southwark could issue a PCN...but then they could issue a PCN for cyclists too couldn't they? This is basically the same instance highlighted in the original post...in this situation a speed limit on a shared use route off the public highway applies to all vehicles does it not? Are they are vehicle...this vehicle issue appears to be your argument's Achiiles Heal! Only in the areas where it is required I presume - I know how you and many of your cohort on here are so keen on the application of rules and regulations to the letter (for cars)! 😉

That only applies to all vehicles in Dulwich Park @exdulwicher. Not sure what the speed limit is for Peckham Rye. This thread has helped establish two things: 1) there is a speed limit of 5mph in Dulwich Park (and it applies to bikes) and 2) dogs do not have to be on a lead in many parts of Dulwich Park. It seems some folks need to read up on the rules!

It doesn't get suspended. @Penguin68 is right, Southwark do like to leave people guessing - probsbly good for revenue generation. In neighbouring Bromley their school streets signs clearly say term-time only and I am surprised Southwark don't have to call it out.

It was a wonderful event.

Ha ha, there's a throwback! Some cracking nights in there.

What are the rules in relation to dogs on leads on Peckham Rye? Within Dulwich Park they are allowed off the lead around the outer perimeter, just have to be on the lead in the central area.

For those of you who celebrate have a good one, yes even to those of you who have taken a disliking to me because I have a different viewpoint to you! Whatever you do, have a good one all!

There is a 5mph limit on the outer perimeter of the park. The outer perimeter is designated a shared use route and as such Southwark have set the speed limit for all vehicles at 5mph on it. It is the same as in Tooting Bec, that has a shared use route with the speed limit set at 12mph - which is where the council were issuing PCNs to cyclists. Whether Southwark would ever police the 5mph limit is another question. Dogs can be off the lead on the outer perimeter and are called out as part of the shared use group. They only have to be on the lead within the inner sections of the park. I suspect this is one of the reasons the speed limit is set at 5mph by the council.

Where are we heading to!? Somewhere nice I hope...I hope it has bike parking so I can cycle there! 😉

@exdulwicher You accept though that councils have the power to set speeds limits within parks don't you and that they would do this by specfic orders relevant to the park? And you accept that Dulwich Park has set that speed limit to 5mph within Dulwich Park and have clearly signposted it? And do you accept that if the said order calls out ALL vehicles having to adhere to that speed that bikes would also need to adhere? Many of your cohort would say that if the rules that are set by the order have been broken then it's a fair cop. But if it is the speed limit and you can't keep within it it's a moot point isn't it? Isn't that like someone saying their car is difficult to keep under 20mph? And this is the issue - mixing uses in a confined space creates challenges especially if some are travelling at much greater speed than others. Lime bikes are an issue and so are cargo bikes in Dulwich Park and a number of dog walkers who saw the angry cyclist vs dog incident said that there have been a number of cyclist vs dog accidents in the park.

But under the UN's 1969 Vienna Convention on Road Traffic bicycles are defined as vehicles so thus are bound by the 5mph speed limit in Dulwich Park are they not? It is a private road with speed limit set by the council.

The speed limit doesn't apply to joggers as they are not a vehicle.....;-)

I wonder what bye-law they are leaning in to for issuing the PCNs and why the GLC initiated it? I doubt Southwark would go after cyclists in the way Wandsworth do - as I said they tried to issue one to me on my bike many years ago and I can't imagine Southwark driving a speed monitoring van with a speed camera in the back into the park to issue PCNs (as Wandsworth have)....although let's be honest the gusto with which Southwark issue PCNs to car drivers if that ever dries up they'll probably come for the cyclists! If they enforced the 5mph speed limit in Dulwich Park though there would be rich pickings given the majority of cyclists are doing far faster than that. Maybe something has to be done that goes beyond the stencilled message to cyclists at the entrances to Dulwich Park to watch their speed as at times it feels very dangerous - does anyone know who the man is who flies around the park doing fast laps on that half recumbent bike?

Even on private land like within a park, do local councils not have the power to set the speed limit within parks? Southwark's website says the 5mph speed limit in Dulwick Park applies to ALL vehicles and there is 5mph signage throughout both the car accessible and non-car accessible parts. Also, and very interestingly, the weird policing by Wandsworth parks police of 12mph, which seemed like a rather odd and random speed to be enforcing, is, apparently, because there are some long forgotten bye-laws about cycle speeds from the GLC days that still apply across London which means they can issue PCNs and the speed limit in the park does very much apply to bikes which they are invoking due to problems caused by cyclists in the park. https://road.cc/content/news/speed-gun-deployed-wandsworth-parks-317353

The dogs on lead signs are on the inner section of the park - around the lake etc.

Cyclists should be observing the 5mph speed limit but most do not - some of those cargo bike boneshaker contraptions laden with small children can be witnessed flying through the park at breakneck speeds heading from Court Lane to the Dulwich Village entrance and vice versa.

Which has, unfortunately, closed. Au Ciel is much better than Gail's. Big bakery in the parade of shops near Rocca in Dulwich Village with all the seats outside - you can't miss it. Normally a big queue outside at weekends with walkers and cyclists topping up on carbs and coffee!

@march46 the incident happened in an area where dog walkers dont have to keep dogs on a short lead. And the cyclist in question was doing way more than the 5pm speed limit and was in the wrong - and everyone around him told him so. He seemed suitably chastised as he sped off at speed, clearly not learning his lesson.

On this one I am a bit torn to be honest as, many years ago, the same Parks Police tried to issue a PCN to me for cycling on the path close to the river in Battersea Park. On the other hand there is clearly an issue with cyclists breaking the park speed limit and if I look at Dulwich Park very few cyclists adhere to the 5pm speed limit set in it and I can see why there may be tension between dog walkers and fast moving cyclists - last week I saw a full kit wally on his £6k bike get angry with a dog walker and he had to brake sharply to avoid their dog - he was cycling way too fast for the park and got little sympathy from the other people on foot around him. I presume those who say that if any car driver falls foul of rules and gets a PCN then they take the same approach to these cyclists - if you are travelling faster than the park speed limit you cannot complain if you get a PCN?