Rockets

Malumbu, given you wide breadth and depth of experience in this field (and thank you for imparting your wisdom to us) why do you think then that TFL breaks the bus lane 20 metres before the Underhill junction and let's people off a fine if they don't drive across a bus lane for more than 20 metres yet Southwark don't at the Overhill junction 100 metres down the road? Careful, the active travel lobbyists will jump on you for this and expel you from their club, you should have said you cycled there....;-)

The difference being if you appeal it with TFL and you didn't drive in it/across it for more than 20 metres during a left turn then they will drop the fine. Southwark won't....they will enforce the fine - if you touch the line you'll get a fine. And the road design should speak volumes - TFL if giving drivers that 20 metre grace period at the junction of Underhill by breaking the bus lane 20 metres before the turn but Southwark does not at Overhill - in fact Southwark creates a very tight turn at a point of high congestion. And then sticks a camera there. And then fines people. Why? Because these measures are about revenue generation not road safety. Only a fool would try to argue otherwise.

Here is what you actually said...back on 20th December..that pretty clear don't you think? There is very much a direct link between the funding for LTNs from CPZs - so your protestation that there isn't, and your defence of the council therein, was inaccurate.

And when you appeal as long as you turned within 20 metres they will accept your appeal and rescind the fine....because they give you 20 metres grace when turning left into a junction across a bus lane.....it's there in black and white on the document on TFL's website.

This is why this is so important and why many on here were trying to convince people that CPZ and PCN revenue was not being used to fund LTNs (the post on the thread are very clear). Because the moment you establish that link it exposes the council to accusations that it is robbing Peter to pay Paul and that there is a motivation to make as much revenue as possible from CPZs and PCNs - and that it is nothing to do with climate change etc. That they then over-aggressively target motorists, many of whom are likely working people, to fund LTNs being demanded by a small group of lobbyists in Dulwich Village and within the Dulwich Society. Not very socialist at all and takes the council into champagne socialist/Tory behaviour territory. Entrap motorists to fund nice new paving for Dulwich Square...

Again, this is not what I have said at all. I have been very clear what TFL says about turning left across a bus lane and what they determine to be grounds for successful appeal. The whole point of the thread was to demonstrate that Southwark don't allow those grounds for appeal and have taken a different approach to road design and my conclusion was that they are doing that for the purposes of revenue generation to fund things like LTNs. I am sure a lot of other people will see it that way too. Some others just don't like it when their narrative and stated position is undermined by actual, undeniable, facts. But this seems to be page 1 of the pro-lobby handbook - never admit you might be wrong and if you think you might be then do all you can to deflect, deny and demonise.

Nonsense. What it confirms is that TFL give drivers 20 metres grace to turn left across a bus lane. Southwark don't. Why? Because Southwark are laying traps for drivers to generate revenue to pay for things like vanity project LTNs. End of story.

Earl you were so sure they didn't spend it on LTNs but a few days ago...are you now convinced they do....;-)

Ha ha...I say TFL has this policy, someone says no they don't, I then prove that TFL do indeed say that then apparently that's confirmation bias....go figure... It's clear some people don't like it when people do actual fact checking! 😉

Facts well and truly checked and clearly some glaring inaccuracies being peddled by some in relation to whether LTNs are being funded from council revenue generation from CPZs etc and whether CPZs are being installed for the purpose of revenue generation to fund such projects - it seems their claims of there being no link was nonsense...see the new thread for factual analysis....;-) But clearly the council need more CPZs to keep funding their LTN plans - which, by default is revenue generation.

So, despite the loud protestations from some on what the council can, or cannot, spend revenue it raises from CPZs and PCNs here is the truth as per the council's annual parking report: https://www.southwark.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2024-10/parking_annual_monitoring_report_2023-24.pdf There's a lot to unpack in here but: there has been a massive increase in revenue generation by the council since Covid - more than doubled. LTNs are being, part, funded by parking, CPZ and PCN revenues (despite what some claim on this forum) - 2 million this year. Does anyone know what the Environment Reserve is used for - I can't seem to find any reference to it in the (as yet un-audited) annual accounts? Year on year the number of PCNs grew by a whopping 34% with bus lane PCNs increasing by 99% In 2019/20 the council issued 120,949 PCNs for traffic violations and this is now more than doubled to 264,259. If anyone is in any doubt clearly the council is using parking and PCNs as a significant source of revenue generation to fund a whole host of activities including LTNs.

Here's TFl guidance on how to police bus lane infractions when crossing them to turn.....one wonders why Southwark does not follow the same guidance....

Earl, hardly confidential - it's on the TFL website and you can find it here....https://content.tfl.gov.uk/eops-schedule2-appendix9-tfl-business-rules.pdf It's clearly guidance from TFL on what is accepted, or not, for an appeal of a PCN and the bus lane one is quite telling isn't it....clearly, despite what you say, TFL does recommend lenience for those who cross a bus lane (for up to 20 metres) to make a left turn.....research and fact checking it's really good and quite enlightening! 😉

Earl, what does point 1.15 say about whether an appeal is accepted or rejected if the vehicle was in a bus lane for less than 20 metres before turning left...;-)

No I believe the council is over-zealously targetting motorists in the pursuit of generating revenue to fritter on vanity projects like Dulwich Square and go to great lengths to convince people that they are not doing so folks come onto public forums like this to defend them and claim it's not about generating revenue - to be fair they had managed to convince you these revenues were not spent on LTNs and a little bit of research massively undermined that position. Do you think they are not abusing the powers handed to them and that this is fair and reasonable, especially in light of the way TFL manages it?

What does the document say Earl.....?

Nah, not buying it. I think it is because Southwark is hellbent on raising as much revenue as possible from motorists to help fund vanity projects like Dulwich Square. The evidence is very compelling don't you think? I mean your own photo speaks volumes in the breaking of the bus lane well in advance of the left turn at Underhill that TFL manages yet Southwark have half a car's length break ahead of the one at Overhill...and Southwark saying any breaking of the bus lane line is deemed a punishable offence....and a recently placed enforcement camera just at that spot...the evidence certainly suggests I may have more than a strong case that Southwark is setting a trap for motorists. I mean, putting a camera up there probably cost a fair bit...why else did they suddenly chose that spot? Cher ching...get that cash rolling in to supplement the millions they get from other strategically placed cameras... The AA quite rightly voiced concerns about handing power over to local authorities ahead of it happening and they were spot on - the power is clearly being abused and has nothing to do with traffic management or saftey but all to do with revenue generstion. Kind of shameful for a supposedly socialist authority like Southwark to be targetting their constituents like this. I wonder how many working people have been entrapped this way - quite a lot I suspect?

Earl, do a search for TFL Enforcement Operations Agreement Schedule 2 Appendix 09 – TfL Business Rules. Check out point 1.15.....what does it say...? Yup, and I bet Camden raised a fair bit of extra revenue with that one...it's madness that local authorities are given the power to do this. I wonder if the police need to retake the authority on this as clearly local authorities are abusing it.

I know it's pantomime season but...oh yes it does....advance warning Earl: I have done my research...;-) With good reason - because the confusion and lack of consistency between each authority creates revenue generating opportunities....which local authorities embrace whole halfheartedly....it's pretty shameful

It's not irrelevant at all because, as your first picture aptly demonstrates, TFL breaks the bus lane well in advance of the left turn junction and then continues it after the junction to allow drivers four car lengths or 20 metres to drive across the bus lane. Southwark does not. And Southwark puts a camera up at that junction. Why? I tell you why, because they want to generate revenue from unsuspecting drivers turning left and clipping the bus lane. There is no other explanation. It's council-led revenue generation and absolutely an abuse of the powers given to local authorities.

TFL affords drivers four car lengths or 20 metres to drive across/in a bus lane when turning left. Why doesn't Southwark council do the same?

That was not my question, my question was why do Southwark chose to not take the same approach as TFL? I think you know the answer to that...;-)

I do wonder if part of the strategic approach being used by the likes of Southwark is to actually create more congestion.

Ha ha, what utter nonsense - some massive creative licence being applied there on your part Earl. There is a big difference between driving in a bus lane and driving across a bus lane to make a left turn....

But TFL, as you so aptly demonstrated with your original picture, give cars turning a good distance to do so without infraction upon the bus lane. So the question is, who do Southwark not do the same? You keep telling us that these measures are not about revenue generation yet in a 100 metre stretch of road we see two very different approaches - one of which is clearly designed to catch drivers infringing. And one where the council has decided to strategically place a camera. I bet that spot is a big revenue earner for the council, catching people clipping the bus lane as they turn left into Overhill, especially during times of queuing traffic. More money for their vanity projects like the Dulwich Square LTN to keep their local cheerleaders happy!