Rockets

But @Earl Aelfheah why do TFL police things differently? Bottom-line is, increasingly, local authorities are abusing their powers and using interventions for money-making purposes. That part is abundantly clear and only those who are ideologically or politically aligned with councils could argue against it. I mean, even the AA are trying to hold local authorities to account over such practices. I very much suspect that with like so many of the discussions on this thread over years I will be proved to have been right and when I remind some of you of that I very much doubt you will "take it on the chin like a grown-up". Honestly, why do you all feel the need to resort to name-calling, it's ludicrous and presents your side of the argument in a very poor light. The last few posts have aptly demonstrated the aggressive demonising some of you resort to when someone presents an argument that differs to your own. So many people have withdrawn from these discussions due to this demonising approach and it looks like it's a deliberate tactic being deployed by some - and we're the ones being told to grow up! 😉

Why is it then that TFL gives you 20m grace on their roads if you appeal? Are their roads more difficult to negotiate a left turn on or is there, perhaps, a differing set of motivations between TFL and Southwark for the purpose of the policing? A case of "ding ding - keep the buses moving" versus "cher-ching - keep the revenue flowing"?

@first mate I think the "outing" to which @DulvilleRes refers (incorrectly in my defence) was when I pointed out that the Dulwich Society transport sub-committee chair (who was appointed under controversial circumstances) was an award winning active travel campaigner who had won LCC's active travel campaigner of the year. That wasn't an outing but it was clearly a connection some were keen not to be made public despite the fact the information was blasted all over the active travel media. They are having to repay 10,000 for a five month period of incorrect fines being issued this year alone.

Unfortunately this is where many stoop to when they have run out of a rational argument - I mean just look at the nonsense, belittling and name-calling from the usual suspects in the last few posts - the aggressive, belittling language is so common from some. And this is exactly the point isnt it? That in the space of a few hundred metres bus lane markings (or where they end before a junction) and the guidance for fines when turning left can different so greatly. When you start to ask why does the bus lane marking stop so close to the junction of Overhill, yet so far from the junctions of Underhill and Wood Vale? Why have Southwark have placed a monitoring camera there? Why? Because it is a money-making exercise. And yes, I suspect it is making a fortune from people trying to get passed queuing traffic going straight and not turning onto Overhiil but Southwark are fining people who would otherwise be let off on appeal for doing the same thing, as long as it was for less tha 20m, on TFL's road 100 metres up the road. This is exactly the type of money-making exercises that the AA is flagging - it is councils abusing the powers they have been given to raise revenues. I wonder if it gets to the point where councils have the facility to do this removed from central government. To be fair @Earl Aelfheah Southwark were forced to cancel many due to incorrect road markings, signage or implementation and execution of fines....just saying....they're having to repay a huge amount we were only discussing on this forum recently. BBC News - Motorists to get refunds on 10,000 bus lane fines https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cjdy9z0pxnmo Have you also looked at the increases in the rates they are issuing PCNs...isnt Southwark near the top of the leaderboard on that?

Ha ha, I didn't claim to be a freedom fighter, but if my posts annoy folks like you then I must be doing something right #notallheroeswearcapes 😉

Errrm nah...don't you think it is important for people to fight against local authorities when they are clearly starting to abuse the powers given to them? I mean Southwark is having to repay a lot of people for fines that were issued incorrectly...do you not agree with that? The fact the AA felt compelled to call out London councils over this shows how the mood board is shifting against these money-making exercises. Look, we understand that many of the posters on here will defend the council to the death over anything and everything. But we also understand that that is not being driven by commonsense or pragmatism but by politics and/or idealogy. Some will turn a blind-eye so some clear abuses of power because it doesnt suit their own, or political party's, agenda. Some of the biggest Southwark supporters don't even live in the borough which makes it all the more strange. Maybe it's time local authorities starting taking some responsibility and not looking at some of their constituents as just revenue generating opportunities.

Coming from you @snowy I look on this as a badge of honour and might get it framed for my living room! 😉 And this is the point, there are many examples, like Overhill Road (which I am sure is making a lot of money from unsuspecting drivers) that look like traffic implementations that serve no other purpose than to make money and this is a council that has a long history of putting profit before people. @malumbu I am intrigued as to what you posted! 😉

You've gone a bit Alan Patridge again.... Why on earth would I need to eat humble pie, I really can't fathom what your point is?

No @Earl Aelfheah I was turning left into Overhill so I was not using the bus lane to queue jump (as I know a lot of people do). Any thoughts on the bus lane outside the shops (or are you trying to avoid that question) - should cars be liable to a fine if they turn across the bus lane to park there - as, per Southwark's own guidance, turning across a solid bus lane is not permitted?

Hardly a non-story @malumbu still one of the lead stories on the BBC.....you clearly don't understand when to serve humble pie! 😉 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvgk40l8jm7o Absolutely. It's a disaster. And for this government, who were happy to tell us they had 14 years to prepare to lead, it has been one self-inflicted disaster after another since they took over. To be honest the signs were there when they were in opposition but I think we all gave them the benefit of the doubt as they weren't the Tories and now they have the reigns the additional scrutiny that brings is tripping them up.

And yet 50 yards further down the road - Southwark demonstrates a complete lack of consistency - do the sames rules still apply with this bus lane? If so, how are people allowed to cross the bus lane to get to the shop parking? Ha ha, you're starting to sound like the council! 😉 The issue here is that you don't like the fact that some folks are questioning whether these new measures are to improve road safety or raise revenue and remember we are dealing with a council that has a long track record of being caught implementing schemes that raise a fortune but were installed or policed incorrectly. The more people I explain my personal experience at that junction to the more people realise what the council is doing. Given the AA are now jumping on the bandwagon it is important people realise where these traps are being laid - so they can do their best to avoid being a victim! All part of the community service many of us provide - some would prefer we didn't but you would have to ask them why that is.....;-) No. The difference is that on appeal, as long as you were not in the bus lane for over 20 metres whilst turning left across the bus lane the fine will be dropped. Interesting of course would be to understand whether this also determines their likelihood to issue a fine in the first place.

Also it seems the PM is a bit annoyed that Rachel Reeves' story changed/amended within 24 hours. And this is why the public cares (well except those who will turn a blind eye to anything their chosen political party does). People were so sick of the lies and nonsense the Tories thrust upon us that they wanted a government that they could trust, that played by the rules. When senior members of that government do not do that it undermines trust in the established political parties at a time when the scariest political party is gaining momentum for not being either Labour or the Tories and, ironically, pitching themselves on the basis of trust.

Yes indeed it does @Earl Aelfheah Southwark, on the other hand, do not. Southwark also run the bus lane lines much closer to junctions with a left-hand turn. Southwark also put cameras in select positions to catch infringements. The AA believes some are using this type of implementation as a "money-making exercise". This one absolutely reeks of a "money-making exercise" and the fact there is no consistency between that Southwark junction and the TFL one a few metres down the road (or even the Southwark implementation of the bus lane in front of the shops) demonstrates the mess councils are creating in their quest for revenue. But @Sue your argument falls down because a criminal court will consider mitigating circumstances before passing sentence. TFL view turning left as a mitigating circumstance when crossing a bus lane (up to 20 metres). Southwark do not. Why might that be? Why is it that the regional travel authority will apply mitigating circumstances but the local council do not?

But hang on a minute, did no-one in the Reeves family check that the letting agent had actually done it? #thismaybehowthestorycontinuestodevelop As anyone who has ever dealt with an estate agent knows...trust them with nothing...

I think, given the nature of the signage, it should state when the school street is operational or not. Otherwise it is misleading. In fact, in other boroughs there are signs that call that out - there are some in Beckenham that make it very clear when they operate, calling out term-time only.

Hey @Earl Aelfheah so the 20m thing is a thing then after all...I won't to say I told you so but I....you were wrong. Southwark supplied a still frame but I am very reluctant to share it here as it would identify my car to my sworn enemies and such is the anti-Rockets sentiment expressed by many on here I fear for reprisals! 😉 Of course I dont but by heck I am not going to let anyone see the make, model and colour of my car on this forum for fear they identify where I live! .

So you don't agree then @Earl Aelfheah that the Overhill Road junction is a very real example of a "money-making exercise"? Too many it is very much a sign of how councils, like Southwark, are laying traps for drivers in an effort to raise revenue. Clearly, since counculs were given more powers there is an increasing problem of councils abusing said powers.

They do if you appeal......the document is their guidance for when to say yes or no to an appeal. It's all very clear no matter what you might try to claim.

Two wrongs don't make a right @malumbu and if you come in on a ticket to end the sleaze you'd better be whiter than white. I suspect a local Dulwich estate agent is preparing to be thrown under the bus.....given the "new evidence has come to light and being assessed by the PM and the independent adviser" news from the PM's spokesperson! Shall we have a wager on which estate agent she went to? 😉 Anyone also want a wager on whether this story was leaked by someone in Southwark council?

Not so fast @malumbu. This is not a nothing to see here moment (and for some of us on the forum it is local as her house is in Dulwich)- the BBC explain why, have a read: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvgkvd3jg2no Southwark's role in this will be key - did they alert her, will they fine her (as they have done with other private landlords), was it someone in Southwark who leaked it? This government came in on a ticket of integrity and this type of thing is very damaging to that message - especially in light of other similar issues Starmer's front-bench has had - it cannot be one rule for them and one rule for us. @Dulwichway you know you're in political trouble when videos like that appear within hours of a story breaking.....and goes viral.

I had always presumed they were in operation out of term time too but when I looked on the Southwark website realised they only operate during term. The fact the signs do not call this out is probably another underhand tactic deployed by the council. Surely the signs have to call out when they are operating?

I did appeal it and sent documentation from TFL showing how they "police" the issue from TFL's own guidance and demonstrated how I merely crossed the white line whilst turning left (Southwark's own photo was my evidence) . Southwark's (or Southwark's revenue collecting entity third party company) response: we police things differently. In fact here is their response: We have carefully considered what you have said but we have decided not to cancel your Penalty Charge Notice (PCN). We sent you a PCN because our camera evidence shows your vehicle in a bus lane at a time when only buses are allowed there. When you are driving alongside a bus lane and you wish to take a left turning up ahead, you must not enter the bus lane too soon and drive along it before reaching the turning. Instead, you need to turn across the bus lane at the point - usually level with the turning - where its line has changed from solid to broken or where arrows on the road show where to turn. We have reviewed the CCTV camera evidence and accept that you turned left. However, you entered the bus lane too soon, meaning that you were in the bus lane longer than necessary. Please be advised that the Bus Lane was not enforced by TFL, therefore the information that you have provided does not apply to the bus lane in contravention, which is enforced by Southwark Council. The information I sent was from TFL that said that drivers get a 20m grace period when turning left into a junction across a bus lane. A representation is made on the basis that the driver had to temporarily drive in a bus lane, in order that they could turn left to access a side road or driveway. View the evidence to validate the representation. If the vehicle was in the bus lane for a distance of over 20 metres, reject. OR if distance within the Bus Lane is less than 20 metres, accept. It's the very same stretch of road...in fact, if the section of Lordship Lane in front of the shops opposite the Grove Tavern is Southwark (which I think it is) then every time a car goes to park in front of the shops then Southwark can issue a fine....pssst don't tell them in case they put a camera there.... So let's play a game of spot the difference....look at Earl's picture. Look how close the bus lane finishes near the apex of the junction. Also note the strategically placed Southwark camera on the lampost beyond the junction. Now look at the (TFL) junction at Underhill (note where the bus lane ends) And now (TFL) Wood Vale. Also note the lack of cameras on any of the lamposts near those junctions... So it is clear that Southwark have made it much easier for people to get fined at the Overhill junction and put a camera in to make sure they do. I did clip the bus lane as I turned left into Underhill. If it was a TFL junction I could have done more than clip it and drive down it for under 20 metres and I would not have got a fine (if I turned left). It is council strategic placements like this that is driving the AA to claim that these are money-making exercises - because clearly they are. Councils are laying traps to drive revenue and I think there is a growing sentiment that such things are not fair (did anyone see the BBC evening news item on PCNs people had got around not having dog poo bags or putting a strawberry stork down a drain based on this article https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gpzxnl7l9o). You clearly know not of what you talk about.......again.....

Seemingly the AA agrees with me that I might have a point and I fell victim to a "money making exercise" - a trap designed by Southwark to raise money - I suspect a lot of other people have fallen victim to it as well. Nearly 10 million PCNs being issued in London does suggest something very awry is going on.....

BBC News - Chancellor admits breaking housing rules by renting out home https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cd04d0yxnrvo One wonders if Southwark will go after her....;-)

No - unclear guidance and road markings between Southwark and TFL over bus lanes. Southwark runs bus lane lines right to a left turn junction and places cameras in front of said junction and fines anyone who touches the line when turning left. TFL stops the bus lane lines well ahead of the junction and gives left turning drivers 10m grace. Drive along Lordship Lane and look at the Overhill and Underhill junctions for comparison. One is Southwark (and probably racking up the fines) and one is TFL. Therein lies the difference and a very real example of how councils are laying revenue generating traps, or as the AA refers to them money-making exercises, for drivers.