Rockets

LTN BooHoo Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Rockets Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Rahx3 - do you think the "trade-offs" currently > > being experienced outside of the LTN are worth > it? > > Hand on heart do you really think what is > > happening on East Dulwich Grove, Lordship Lane > or > > any number of roads being impacted negatively > by > > the displacement is worth it? > > > > LTN Boo Hoo - I am glad you have stuck around > and > > are actually engaging in debate - too many of > your > > cohorts register for an account, fire off a few > > emails and then disappear (or maybe return to > > using their original handle...ahem....;-)) > > > > Was there a protest - I did see a few people > with > > placards but given the weight of feeling > against > > the closures I would have expected more people > to > > turn out if there was a formal protest. > > > > Just out of interest Boo Hoo - do you live > within > > the LTN area? Are we also to assume that your > > handle is a swipe at anyone who doesn't agree > with > > your view on LTNs? > > Everyone lives near or in an LTN and few are > unaffected. > > I?ve made a few comments here and have asked what > the alternative is. No one has come back with > anything that makes any sense. Foe example a > recent post suggest the modal filters should be > just a term time! How does that work? > > Why would I ?swipe? at anyone who disagrees if > they have a viable, long-term alternative solution > that fully addresses climate change, congestion, > and our health crises? > > I?m the laziest person around. I use to drive to > work (3 miles), drive to East Dulwich (2 miles) > Kings, Sainsbury?s, the garden centre and so on. > But that has now changed because I understand the > need and the benefits. If I walk or ride a > bike/scooter then people who really need to drive > will be able to. > > I?m afraid I don?t have much time for > disinformation (eg ?Dulwich has Spoken? or the > LTNs are preventing people from getting their > vaccination/ emergency services are being delayed. > This along with the entitlement that goes hand in > hand with the DA permit proposal. We ALL need to > change the way we move around this great city of > ours - not for us, for our grandchildren and their > children. > > You will say it?s not working! Oh course it?s not > working and that?s because we need to do more to > encourage modal shift and to get people to think > about alternatives eg car sharing. > > For the record I don?t know or have any cohorts > and as for sticking around I think people just get > bored because of the intractable position anti > LTNers take. This issues won?t be decided here or > on Twitter. It will be decided on policy first and > foremost and adopted policy in my view is > currently against supporting free and easy vehicle > movement. > > Come out of the darkness and into the light. We > need to reshape our environment so human-scale > movement becomes the norm, the obvious thing to > do. Big ideas are important so what?s yours? > > PS For anyone who is interested in exploring what > modal shift feels like there?s a beginner cycle > ride being organised for women, starting in the > Square to Dulwich Park and through quiet roads. > There are also commuter rides, where guides take > you via quiet routes from Dulwich to the city > and/or > Westminster. Get in touch with Joyriders.com if > interested. Boo Hoo - you make some good points and many of us have made numerous suggestions on how the council should be tackling the issues in a more equitable and less damaging way - we often see people joining the debate late saying that they see no alternatives....then some of us post alternatives and the pro-LTN lobby ignores them! ;-) The point we anti-LTNers (as you pigeon-hole us) are making is that the way the council has gone about this is causing more problems than it solves - it does nothing to deal with the issue - it just moves the problem somewhere else. There isn't an LTN in the country that hasn't created an increase in traffic on the surrounding roads. Do you think it is fair that whilst someone benefits on Court Lane that someone else loses on Lordship Lane or East Dulwich Grove. Why? Because LTNs are a blunt instrument, implemented locally (often as councillor vanity projects) and in isolation that are not part of a co-ordinated strategic plan to tackle the issues relevant to that area. Without that strategic plan they have been doomed to failure since the outset. Southwark Council, along with the various lobby groups that have jumped on the bandwagon, have said, quite rightly, that car use needs to reduce. But they have implemented LTNs in areas that, by their own admission should not be considered for LTNs (poor PTAL scores, high car ownership caused by high proportions of young and old in the local demographic). One has to ask why they ignored their own advice? Are they just taking a punt that the measures will magically work despite their own counsel that they won't? They told us give them time to bed in - we have and there is zero improvement. In fact, as life begins to return to normality so the inevitable is happening - things are getting worse. You are absolutely right that we all need to make changes but LTNs don't help everyone - they help those who are within the LTN areas to make modal shift (and my personal criticism is that it is all well and good for the council to encourage model shift in areas where people own large houses and side-returns but they are doing nothing to deliver infrastructure to those not in that position). Let me ask you this - do you believe that the LTNs have caused displacement and, if so, what are your suggested solutions to manage that so that everyone can benefit? I have asked this of many pro-LTN supporters and their answers are always, inevitably, the same - more LTNs. You may have no time for what you refer to as disinformation (and I agree that there is a lot of hyperbole employed as people try to make their point) but what a lot of those not supportive of LTNs are tired of is the way that pro-supporters and lobbyists steadfastly refuse to admit that the LTNs are causing any problems. Whilst you plead for people to come out of the darkness into the light what many of us want is for the pro-closure lobby to come and meet us halfway - find a solution that is not only good for them but good for people at the end of their road too. Otherwise the blinkered approach by the pro-LTN lobby runs the real risk of setting the climate debate back years. It's time to admit they are not working and to find an equitable solution that benefits all.

Burbage Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Rockets Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > But 22,500 drivers have not missed a two 20mph > > signs in a 6 week period. You have to admit > that > > those numbers suggest that something isn't > > working. > > The RAC's Report on Motoring 2020, contains this: > > "On roads with a 20mph limit, compliance is also > improving with nearly four in 10 (39%) admitting > to speeding, down > from 44% last year" > > and > > "Meanwhile, 11% of limit-breakers have driven > above 40mph in a 30mph zone while 10% have > exceeded 30mph in a 20mph zone. In the case of the > latter, 45% of those who speed at least > occasionally say this is because they believe the > limit is ?inappropriate? for the area or stretch > of road in question." > > I think that tells us exactly what's not working. Burbage - you seem to be missing the point.....I don't think there is a 20 mph speed camera anywhere in the country that has issued 22,500 fines in such a short period of time. No one is suggesting that speeding is not a problem - we are suggesting that the bus gates are inappropriately and inadequately signposted which is resulting in many people getting fines (not because of the wilful ignoring of said signs but because they have no idea there are any restrictions in place.

Rahx3 - do you think the "trade-offs" currently being experienced outside of the LTN are worth it? Hand on heart do you really think what is happening on East Dulwich Grove, Lordship Lane or any number of roads being impacted negatively by the displacement is worth it? LTN Boo Hoo - I am glad you have stuck around and are actually engaging in debate - too many of your cohorts register for an account, fire off a few emails and then disappear (or maybe return to using their original handle...ahem....;-)) Was there a protest - I did see a few people with placards but given the weight of feeling against the closures I would have expected more people to turn out if there was a formal protest. Just out of interest Boo Hoo - do you live within the LTN area? Are we also to assume that your handle is a swipe at anyone who doesn't agree with your view on LTNs?

Underhill has been awful since the closures went in as people try to find a way around the queuing traffic at the junction of Lordship Lane and the A205. Has anyone seen any monitoring strips on Underhill? There seems to be two sets on each of roads like Woodwarde and Court Lane.

Slarti - you hit the nail on the head - Southwark's own report completely undermines the decision to implement LTNs in Dulwich. Dulwich was already way ahead of the borough norm for active travel so you have to ask whether there needed to be such a radical LTN intervention and then that naturally leads you to ask what the real motivation for doing so was and who they were pandering to. Rahrahrah - 20% of car journeys started and finished in the area, there were an additional 7% where people were a passenger (that is an important distinction). Given the high proportion of people under 19 (25%) and over 65 (10%) in the area does 20% seem that high to you? If the council had done proper analysis they would have concluded that the LTNs would have little beneficial impact on car usage in the area because I bet a large proportion of that 20% is "essential" or cannot be done in another way. Pretty much everything in that report massively undermines the position taken by the council in relation to LTNs.

Rahrahrah - but no one is saying that short car journeys are a good thing and the report doesn't demonstrate that is happening. Quite the opposite in fact. The report is a ringing endorsement of the fact that the LTNs were a really, really bad idea. A bad idea that has been even more poorly implemented. What the report does clearly show is that the LTNs were a sledge-hammer to crack a nut and the council didn't have the first clue what type of nut they were trying to crack. I am not sure they even had a nut to crack - they just wanted to hit something with a sledge-hammer.

rahrahrah Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Spartacus Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Quoting a figure of 40% for a whole borough is > > misleading when it comes to local Dulwich > issues. > > Presumably people in Dulwich travel within the > Borough more generally though? It's only around 11 > miles square. Or perhaps they're just driving > around Dulwich? Nope. Appears most folks from Dulwich are walking around it...and this report was from 2018... Trips starting and ending in Dulwich have been analysed separately. Figure 2.5 shows that shopping and leisure trips account for a significant part of the total, while work-related internal trips are very limited Almost 2/3 of all internal trips surveyed are undertaken on foot. It is also worth noting that the cycle mode share is very limited, even for short distance trips. Similarly, the share of bus trips is very low. The low attractiveness of bus for short trips could potentially be explained by localised congestion or the benefit perceived in waiting and riding the bus compared to walking

rahrahrah Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Rockets Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Dulwich car ownership is at over 60% in the > > Dulwich area - driven (no pun intended) by the > > larger percentage than other boroughs of those > > under-19 and those over 65 and the poor public > > transport links in the area. > > > > It's all in here: > > > https://www.southwark.gov.uk/assets/attach/6887/Du > > > lwich-TMS-SDG-Full-Report-Final-April-2018-.pdf > > > > > > Which, when you read it, makes the decision to > > puts LTNs even more baffling. > > This report you've linked to makes the case for > LTNS IMO. 27% of trips starting and ending in > Dulwich are made by car?! Some of those trips will > be necessary. A lot won't be. But it doesn't make the case for LTNs quite the opposite in fact. The council doesn't like the existence of this report because it is a smoking gun demonstrating that they knew the closures would lead to one thing only - and that was massive congestion as there is not the public transport infrastructure to support East/West travel - so why go and throttle it further - it makes no sense at all.

Rahx3 - that's all in the report as well - although this is all journeys. Oh and look, at the end of the text below from the council's own report there's a reference to the elephant in the room - the lack of East/West public transport options which leads more people to use their car.....which, of course, they have strangled with these closures which is the root cause of the congestion problems we are seeing across the area as a result.. Again, you have to question the rationale and justification for the closures given the overwhelming data from the council's own reports - it was clear what was going to happen when the closures went in.....yet no-one from the council could see it. Three origin/destination areas have been used in the analysis: ? Southwark: including trips originating outside the three wards but within the borough ? Neighbouring Boroughs: including trips originating in those boroughs that are adjacent to the study area (Lambeth, Lewisham and Bromley) ? Non-neighbouring Boroughs: including all other areas of London As shown in Figure 2.2, work-related trips are largely longer, starting/ending in non-neighbouring boroughs. It should be noted that due to the nature of the LTDS surveys some of the inbound and outbound trips are likely to represent two legs of the same journey. Figure 2.2: Inbound/Outbound surveyed trips by purpose and by origin/destination (5-year total) Source: LTDS 2010-2015 (inbound trips sample n=263,403, outbound trips sample n=257,941) The modal split of inbound (see Figure 2.3) and outbound (see Figure 2.4) trips shows a prevalence of car/private vehicle, accounting for half of the total number of surveyed trips. Trips starting in nonneighbouring boroughs are more likely to be undertaken by public transport, with rail as the preferred mode. On the other hand, the lower E-W public transport connectivity is reflected in higher numbers of people travelling from/to neighbouring boroughs by car.

....let the children play...but not in our Square please...;-)

Raeburn Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > That?s exactly the right reason - to provide > better infrastructure and enable people to walk, > ride, scoot, skate. End the false construct that > driving is the answer, and reduce reliance on > vehicles for short-hop journeys? But Raeburn, to be fair, the council has said previously that you should not put these types of measures in places where PTAL scores are low and car ownership is high as they wont work i.e. Dulwich. The council can't have it both ways and what we are seeing now are the consequences of them ignoring their own advice.... Also, let me correct you it appears the council wants to encourage walking and riding but not scooting or skating given the positioning of the new planters in Margy Square.....;-) I was at the cafe at the weekend and couple of children were bemoaning the fact they could not play there anymore....

Dulwich car ownership is at over 60% in the Dulwich area - driven (no pun intended) by the larger percentage than other boroughs of those under-19 and those over 65 and the poor public transport links in the area. It's all in here: https://www.southwark.gov.uk/assets/attach/6887/Dulwich-TMS-SDG-Full-Report-Final-April-2018-.pdf Which, when you read it, makes the decision to puts LTNs even more baffling.

I think a lot of our local Labour councillors are doing a fine impression of Tory councillors during this debacle.

LTN Boo Hoo: You said: An arbitration exercise is not what I?m suggesting. What I?m suggesting is a team of professional experts who can look at an area and make recommendations on how to make things better for everyone. Eg where the blockages are occurring and how to make adjustments to ease them. Surely the council should have engaged with said professional experts (if they do not have the capability internally to do this) BEFORE implementing these measures? You have registered recently but if you look back you will see that many on here were predicting exactly what has happened (in terms of negative impacts) of these measures. If people on this forum could predict what was going to happen then why could the council not - that is, after all, what they are paid to do? Anyway, to your point on making changes I don't know if anyone else is but I am hearing rumours that they are coming due to the untenable congestion being caused by these closures across Dulwich and the realisation that they are not working and causing far more issues than they solve. I suspect the council are seeing the data and from the monitoring and not liking what they are seeing. Re: Goodrich, ah so the school wasn't informed as the council went for a yellow-line land-grab again....you would have thought the council would have told the school these were in-bound....I sense some tensions between Goodrich and the council.

DC - this is another case of the Guardian's usual "the headline doesn't quite tally with the info further down the article" bias and if you read the article with a clear mind you will see why. Also, you say there is no proof of emergency services citing LTNs as delays but there is and the DV junction closure has been called out in reports from LAS - but maybe we should put that down to salience.....I hope I don't urgently need emergency service assistance that gets delayed due to salience....here lies the body of Rockets - it was salience that did for him! ;-) Let me break it down: Headline: Opponents of LTNs claim they delay emergency services ? but look at the facts Reality: LTNs aren't specifically called out by the emergency services but "traffic calming measures", which include LTNs were in a report and these rose by as much as 35% in areas with new LTNs. Guardian's defence: Data obtained from LFB by The Times not "scientifically credible" and LFB reports of delays down to salience Objective analysis: More desperate Guardian blah, blah, blah in defence of LTNs Rewrite the Guardian headline from the other side: LFB see up to 35% rises in delays caused by new traffic calming measures, including LTNs but supporters claim this is due to salience The proof: There was, however, one interesting phenomenon: the proportion of the delays put down to ?traffic calming measures? ? the metric that covers LTNs ? rose, particularly when newer LTNs had been built. The authors argue that this seemed largely down to the academic phenomenon known as ?salience?: the fact that some things are just more memorable than others. Hence, a crew having to detour round a new set of bollards are much more likely to note this in their report than, for example, being held up by traffic. The corollary to the Waltham Forest report is a news story in the Times last month, which used the extensive LFB data to argue that LTNs did appear to be a problem, citing the fact that delays attributed to ?traffic calming measures? rose much more steeply in boroughs with new LTNs than those without ? by 35% as against 2.8%. While superficially notable, the article is not academically credible, for several reasons. One is the impact of salience on the results. Another is that London boroughs are big and complex places, and there was no attempt made to account for the many other factors that could be involved ? not least the very different traffic patterns of lockdown.

This does look like a very deliberate move to stop the kids skating there - it's pretty shameful to be honest given they are so desperate to create modal shift....but to only certain types it appears.

Ah ha - they've put the planters there to stop the kids from using it as a skate and scooter park.....it seems that skaters are not part of their plans for use of the "Square"! The killjoys....

And it now looks like the water main is going again at the end of Underhill at the junction of the A205 - water on the surface of the road again......so back will come Thames Water....

I agree with everything said above. It's time for the council to come out of their LTN bunker and begin a proper dialogue with ALL residents - not just those in their own echo chamber. The LTNs are having a devastating impact on those who live, work and are schooled outside of the LTN epicentre and it's time for the council and councillors to admit they are not working and try to engage with everyone to work to find solutions that are fair to everyone - the head in the sand approach, positioning those who are raising legitimate concerns as a "small, vocal minority", pandering to lobby groups and analysing things on a ward-by-ward basis has to stop - it's time for the local councillors to break rank with the party line and do what they were elected to do - represent the views of all of their constituents to the council. I suspect they may have to start doing this as it is clear that their review could not have been more badly timed as the traffic is horrendous as lockdown lifts and people return to some semblance of normality and it is exposing the fundamental flaws in the approach the council and councillors have taken and validating what many locals were saying would happen when these measures were first mooted under the guise of a need for social distancing. I suspect as they are reviewing the data they are fast realising there is no way they can positively spin this.

I suspect they are putting them on there to warn cyclists that pedestrians may be crossing, especially now due to the narrowing caused by the new benches. The junction is just so confusing now and no-one knows who has priority - I was sitting enjoying a sandwich from Au Ceil with my family on the new seats and a few bikes came hurtling down the hill which caused a few people walking across the road to do the pre-collision shuffle - that quick couple of stutter steps people take when they think a collision is imminent.

Completely agree legal - the Square is just really confused as to what it is now - a mish mash of poorly thought out implementations. No-one knows who has right of way and no-one seems to know whether the traffic signals apply to them anymore or not so just ignore them. It's another example that this council really hasn't got the first clue how to manage anything professionally.

Heartblock - the council cannot remedy it as they are in a blackout period ahead of the mayoral elections. Cllr McAsh - would you please share with us the list of roads east of Lordship Lane that have received the leaflets? It appears it is a few houses along each road immediately bordering Lordship Lane (literally the first few houses) and then some houses along Underhill Road. And perhaps you might tell us which road the resident who told you all of their neighbours had received it is - it wouldn't be Melbourne Grove per chance.......asking for a friend....;-) Finally, are monitoring strips in on Underhill Road?

That could be a fun meeting to watch! ;-) ..especially if the traders have been invited..... Grab your popcorn....

redpost Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > LTN's and the consultation process have been all > over the TV news, print news, leaflets, shop > windows, internets etc for the past year > > Just to make sure everyone is aware of the > process, perhaps southwark should pay for a > gorillagram to personally deliver the leaflet to > every household in south London? > > Of course, you would then be the first to moan > about the cost of consultation > > > Rockets Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > They have to do a better job of communicating > with > > everyone on this. We are all aware of the > review > > but many people have no clue it is going on and > so > > will not have an opportunity to give their > input. > > I suspect the council is more than happy with > this > > as they know this is going to become a numbers > > game and if the weight of public opinion is > > against them then it becomes more and more > > difficult to justify. > > > > It's clear that everyone who lives on one of > the > > roads on the pulldown menus (but remember the > > fight many of us had to put up to have our > roads > > added) should also receive the leaflet as a > matter > > of course. Redpost - but news of the council's review has not, I am sure you'll agree, had quite so much attention so maybe given the council's desire to see a fair and equitable review they need to ensure that everyone in the area is aware of it. Or perhaps they are expecting people to sense there is a review and take a punt negotiating the awful council website to try, on the offchance, to find the review page. No, it's clear what we are seeing here is a council desperate to try and maniulate things to keep the review under the radar as much as possible to try and influence the outcome of it. They know, and I suspect you do too Redpost, that if, for example, people living on Goodrich Road or Dunstans Road were aware of the review they might want to respond and leave their (probably) less than favourable feedback due to the increase in traffic on their roads. Trust me, I won't moan about them spending a few thousand on making sure all of their constituents being affected by these LTNs receive a leaflet. I mean, what on earth could they be afraid of......;-) Anyway, has anyone noticed that the monitoring strips seem to only have gone in on the "main" roads (except I hasten to add the closed roads). As far as I am aware there are no strips on Underhill, for example. Could it be that the council is really going to do the assessment and then say that the "main" roads are where this traffic should be going to justify their nonsense schemes?

The LTNs are doing what many of us feared they would, creating a car free nirvana in some areas whilst creating car hell around it. The traffic on the A205, Croxted Road, East Dulwich Grove, Lordship Lane, Underhill Road is awful, especially since the most recent lockdown lifting, and I very much suspect that the change in narrative from some councillors about some roads being built to handle more traffic is a clear sign of the way they are going to try and justify the hell they are creating for the large majority of their constituents......