Rockets

Ah this probably explains why the council removed the recycling bins at Belair - putting revenue before the environment as they managed to free up 10 more soon to be paid-for parking spaces by removing it. This council is out of control - all parts of Labour have been infected by the dangerous hard-left and they are taxing car owners/middle classes aggressively - be that the CPZ, parking charges or the myriad of hair-brained ideas designed to make driving around the borough impossible based on the flawed logic that people will stop using cars. And they will bleat on about Tory austerity but that?s their go-to weak excuse/justification for everything. I did laugh a few years ago when I saw a huge billboard advert in Lambeth apologising to residents for having to reduce services due to central government cuts.......the irony of spending council money on such a thing in a time of austerity...... Thank goodness Chuka is trying to rally a more centrist option, one that isn?t either hard-left or hard-right because both sides of the political spectrum at the moment are pretty unpalatable - one with rabid anti-semitism the other rabid xenophobia.

Galileo Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Rockets > > Yes, of course I care about local businesses. I?m > one of their customers too. I particularly care > about the ones I know right by me, and they suffer > from the same problem: their customers can?t park. > > And are they supporting the CPZ? And what do they say to you when you say you are in favour? The traders are not worried for the sake of being worried and yes The Palmerston is closing for challenges unrelated to CPZs but this will fast become a trend and something we will have to become used to when the CPZ gets rolled out. People are resisting because they know once the council start they will not stop and can see their plans for what they really are.

Galileo, I am interested, you're obviously local to the Lane and I presume you use it - does it not slightly concern you that the CPZ may have a negative impact on its ability to thrive? I ran down Village Way today and the CPZ has certainly had an impact there - there was not a single car parked on either side of the road for the length of the road, great for the residents on that road but a bit of a white elephant as all the houses have driveways. But you have to ask, where have all those cars gone (and I presume they were commuters) - when it comes to commuting people do not change their habits they just adapt them? The only beneficiaries to that CPZ seem to be the people dropping off/picking up their kids at JAPS, JAGS or Alleyns.

The sooner everyone realises that the council only cares for two things: 1) ?125 a year from every car in the CPZ and 2) reduced car usage - the better. The council gives not one jot whether you can park outside your house - they don?t want you to have a car, they don?t care for the impact a CPZ will have on a local area or the local amenities that serve the community - all they care for is the cash this CPZ generates and they are doing everything they can to justify implementing it. And once they get their foot in the door it will be a disaster for the area as they will play the CPZ domino game. And remember they deliberately made the parking challenges worse in the CPZ area (and only within the CPZ area) with the extension of the double yellows so people would ?vote? for the CPZ. It?s blatant interference and manipulation. Talk to any of the traders on Lordship Lane (perhaps some of those in favour should do this) and the council isn?t listening to their concerns - they want and need the cash and they are doing everything in their power to get it and they will fudge and bluff their way to justify it. As someone said from a CPZ area nearby - be careful what you wish for.

James, Once again thank you for taking the time to respond. I appreciate that the council is a fan of CPZs but, in the same way Brexit was sold to people on the basis of untruths, the council?s materials are full of examples and facts and figures that are deliberately misleading. It tries to present itself as balanced but is anything but. And we have had members of this forum presenting the stats in the consultation documentation as validation of the good CPZs do. It seems to me that the majority of residents both in the affected area and beyond are against the CPZs but they also feel that the council will manipulate and distort the results to their advantage and will railroad the plans. Nothing about the consultation process, or the way it is being implemented, is reassuring them that this is anything but a done deal and that the council is doggedly pursuing an agenda of revenue generation ahead of needs of the local community. The one fact that does stand up to scrutiny is that parking in East Dulwich became a big issue when the council extended the double yellows a year or so ago within only the CPZ area which we were sold on the basis of ?safety? but most saw as a ploy to create parking pressure to help justify a CPZ. If the council pursues this campaign it will do irreparable harm to the Lordship Lane and East Dulwich community that you represent and the outpouring of resentment towards it on this forum and beyond should serve as a red flag to the council.

CPZs are like catnip to local councils and they will move heaven and earth to get them implemented. I am so glad people are challenging them over these ludicrous proposals and scrutinising what they will actually mean. Once you scratch beneath the surface you see what is really going on and that their intentions are not at all honourable and that very few people will actually benefit from these proposals (except them).

Perhaps one consideration for the council to help relieve the parking issues would be to return the double-yellows (that they only extended within the proposed CPZ area - read into that what you will) to how they used to be. There is a direct correlation between parking getting worse and the arrival of the "legal maximum" double-yellows and they were extended to deliberately remove parking spaces and to create justification for the CPZ. I agree with jimlad that a split area CPZ is merely the pre-cursor to a full-area CPZ and people should resist as much as they can (if they are so inclined). And for anyone who wants to have their say use this link as it is the ONLY input Southwark are willing to accept as part of the process: https://consultations.southwark.gov.uk/environment-leisure/eastdulwichparking/

James, Firstly let me say thank you for engaging with us all on this subject - I very much appreciate you are caught between a rock and a hard place on this one. To address the prompted/unprompted discussion above my experience when door-stepped by a Labour representative a couple of years ago was that she asked if parking was a problem - I certainly didn't bring it up! I think many of the issues local people have about this whole process is the way the consultation is being handled - a lot of people are feeling the CPZ is being forced upon them. It is obvious the council has an agenda to roll-out CPZs across the borough and we all know this has nothing to do with the benefit of local people but revenue. Add to this the fact the council extended double-yellows (only within the proposed CPZ area) to remove a large number of parking spaces you can see why people are somewhat sceptical about the motives. Many people I have spoken to are resigned to the fact that the council will force a CPZ upon East Dulwich whether people want it or not. And when I look at the way the consultation process is being handled it merely validates the position of those who believe that the council is creating a scenario to validate their decision to roll it out. - The prospectus failed to reach many of those impacted - to be fair I think you get a free pass on this one as those of us who live in the area know how horrendous the Royal mail is at the moment in the area. - The prospectus is so biased towards a CPZ and full of erroneous stats that just don't stand-up to any scrutiny that it is laughable. It is blatant propaganda that should not be being shared as part of any "democratic" process. - You say the council is asking the questions widely but you are only mailing (or trying to mail) the roads directly covered by the CPZ - yet the impact stretches far more widely than that. Surely the views of people living one road the other side of the Barry Road boundary should be gathered too as they will likely be directly impacted by it. - Unless you receive the mailing you have no idea where to actually register you comments and it is very difficult to find on the Southwark website. When you get there you can register the street upon which you live and if you do not live on one of the streets impacted you have to put "Other" which makes people think that you will only consider comments from those people within the zone. - Thousands of people who use Lordship Lane have signed a petition yet these will not be considered. - The drop-in meeting was shambolic (some say deliberately so) and people were not allowed to register their opposition to the plans. And there are plenty more examples quoted within this thread that validate the perception that the council is creating a scenario to justify its decision to roll-out a CPZ. The sanguine amongst us on the thread understand the issues people have parking near their homes in parts of East Dulwich but are wise enough to realise a CPZ does not fix those problems - and certainly not in the way the council is currently planning. It might offer a temporary fix for the few but creates bigger issues for the many! (Sorry I couldn't resist ;-) )

Does anyone have a contact at the SOS campaign? If so, could they PM me the details?

James, Thank you for outlining the process, I think what we are interested in are your views on the proposal as it seems a large percentage of the residents within your ward, that you represent, are against it. You rightly point out that this is a hugely contentious issue, namely because people feel the council is trying to railroad this through without considering the consequences. Let me be more specific: - the consultation document is full of ?facts? that upon further scrutiny do not stand up and are misleading at best - parking pressure increased after the council extended double yellow lines, seemingly only in the CPZ area, which many interpreted as an uneccessary and unwarranted move that acted as a pre-cursor and catalyst to justifying the CPZ - little consideration has been given to the impact on Lordship Lane - the distribution of the consultation documents has been shambolic at best and how can anyone guarantee that spending even more money will resolve the issues? - given the distribution issues will the significant numbers of signatures collected by local shopkeepers of people against the CPZ be considered? - why is the council spending tax payers money on this consultation after receiving just 95 complaints about parking over a 3 year period - which represents just over 1% of the local population? - is it correct that you are suggesting the highest permissible business rate for local traders? - you talk about additional drop in meetings but are the views of those who attend going to be taken into account and will you assure us that they will be more professionally managed? Oh and many of us don?t care what your political leanings; we just want you to represent the views of those being impacted by these proposals.

It may have taken Southwark 3 years to collect between 98 and 117 requests yet in a matter of weeks it looks like the Lordship Ship lane shop keepers have collected thousands of signatures of those against it. I wonder if the council will consider those objections.

The Nappy Lady Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > At the local business meeting with the council the > other day they told us they were collecting > anonymous data from mobile phones to work out > where people who park are coming from and if they > are then commuting into town etc!!! > > You see they all seem to be saying different > things at different meetings. > > There?s no reason they can?t implement a 2 hour > free parking with times ticket from a machine to > deter commuters and free residents permits. But > they need to generate revenue. > > Don?t be fooled. I would be interested to know whether the council HAS collected data (also where does one get such data, wouldn?t you have to opt in to sharing such data if it is to be used for a consultation as you are basically tracking people?s movements?) if so why are they not sharing it, if they ARE collecting the data you have to ask whether they have wasted tax payers money on a consultation without actually previously determining whether there is an issue or what the issue is. Some of the cynics amongst might suggest they are now trying to retrospectively come up with the reason for the CPZ. This whole thing is starting to stink.

James, What are your thoughts on the CPZ discussion that has been ongoing for some time now on this forum and throughout your ward. Your ward is the one most directly impacted and the whole consultation process seems to be utterly chaotic and geared towards justifying a decision that has already been made. Today, for example, I spoke to a shop owner that had not received any of the consultation documents nor did they know that there had been a meeting for shop owners earlier this week. I told him about the drop in session today and he was going to make his way there. It appears not everyone?s voice is being heard. It seems there has not been the proper due diligence given to this project, the consultation documents are full of inaccurate and misleading claims that have no bearing on reality and many are concerned that the council is trying (again) to railroad plans through that do not properly address the unique nature of Lordship Lane and that these plans will ultimately damage the uniqueness of the area we all call home. There is a lot of local opposition to these plans - the long lists of signatures in most shops along the Lane attest to this - and the fear is that the council will just power ahead with a plan that seems motivated purely by revenue generation. What is your position?

roywj - most of the traders I have spoken to on the Lane are worried about their livelihoods not their ability to pay and display to get to work. And many local residents are resisting as they see this for what it is - a tax and something the council has been plotting to action for years. To suggest the CPZ will not affect trade is an assumption at best. And the council's own research showed that the pull of Lordship lane was greater than both the SE22 and SE15 postcodes and 22% of people had driven - and these were people interviewed shopping on the Lane. In another report the council said that Lordship Lane was increasingly becoming a hub behind only London Bridge and Walworth Road for it's catchment area - and since then the catchment area is likely to have increased with places like the Picturehouse and M&S opening. What if the council introduces day long zone operation thus forcing drivers to use the council's pay and display machine - which on the plans are few and far between? What if just 10% of those people give up coming to the Lane? A 5 - 10% decrease in footfall on Lordship Lane could be catastrophic to local businesses.

I see lots of people quoting the success of freeing up parking spaces in places like DKH, VIllage Way or the toastrac but the problem in those areas is clearly commuter parking. The challenges along Lordship Lane are multi-faceted and a combination of commuter parking and people using the Lane to shop. And you can't solve one without impacting the other. Lordship Lane is a thriving business street and it does attract people from distances further than walking distance away so the concerns voiced by so many here are legitimate. I do feel sorry for people who find trouble parking near their homes but voting for the CPZ on that benefit alone is short-sighted - everyone needs to look at the wider implications - I did chuckle to myself when I read the comment on someone boycotting the stores in the Save our High Street campaign! What seems to have been glossed over is the fact that parking became noticeably worse after the council extended the double-yellows lines to the maximum they could as a pre-cursor to helping justify a CPZ. I remember James Barber calling that out as wholly unnecessary at the time and it was clear it was a trojan horse and part of their long-term programme to get a CPZ in East Dulwich. If you approach their current plans with that in mind you can start to see through them. Look beyond the made-up headline benefits, scratch a little deeper and ask some difficult questions and you will find they don't have the answers. Speaking of which does anyone know how the traders consultation meeting with the council went?

Good points bonaome - the council throw these figures around without anything of any substance to back them up. As I posted previously what we do know from the council's own study in 2015 ( [www.southwark.gov.uk) is that 22% of those surveyed on Lordship Lane had driven and many had come from postcodes further than SE22 and SE15. And since 2015 I very much suspect the catchment area and footfall for the Lane has increased with the introduction of the M&S, cinema and other shops and the local independent traders are benefiting from this. What we don't know is what impact the CPZ will have on that % but you don't have to be a council planner to determine that it will drop and will have a detrimental impact on the independent stores. Unfortunately the council are trying to push ahead with their plans (again) without taking the time (again) to understand the particular challenges of Lordship Lane and East Dulwich and seem to be hanging their prospectus on the basis that "because we have put CPZs everywhere else it is causing problems in East Dulwich and West Peckham so you should have one" but it should probably read "East Dulwich the cash cow we have yet to milk"!

I was positively encouraged by both the huge numbers of people who have signed the various petitions in the shops of Lordship Lane at the weekend and the passion with which the shopkeepers are trying to fight the CPZ.

In 2015 Southwark published a report on the high streets in the area and it's study on Lordship Lane found that 22% of people on Lordship Lane travelled by car and that it was the second highest % for car arrival after Walworth Road. More snippets from the report below: Over half of the respondents (57%) on Lordship Lane lived in local postcodes, SE22 (29%), which surrounds the high street, SE15 (17%) just to the north, and SE12 (11%) which is some way away. The remainder lived in 29 further and widely dispersed postcodes, spread largely but not exclusively from around South East London. 5.2 How did they get here? The high street is well connected for buses travelling through South East London almost a third had travelled to Lordship Lane by bus, ten points above the average for the survey. Rather fewer had walked, which could indicate either greater distance or more shopping was involved. Table 11 helps to confirm the picture of the typical visitor however, since almost a quarter had arrived by car, twice the average and with the exception of Walworth road, the highest proportion for any Southwark high street. The picture is one of a local population using the centre because it is convenient and easy to access, but with rather more than expected choosing to use a car to get there and back. I do hope someone presents this report back to Southwark to ask them how the CPZ might impact these numbers and I cannot believe that given they conducted this research they have given little consideration to address the impact on the Lane form the CPZ (other than the ludicrous headline stat that people who walk to the high street spend 40% more than those who drive - which incidentally comes from a report commissioned by TFL on high-street improvements like pedestrianisation so seems to have been plucked at random to help justify their proposals): Anyway, the council's report is below. https://www.southwark.gov.uk/assets/attach/1922/2.2.11%20Lordship_Lane_Web_Report.pdf

Our road is not currently in the suggested CPZ zone but parking can be problematic but I would always put my personal inconvenience over the potential to kill Lordship Lane and other facilities that will be impacted by this. The process seems to be neglecting the fact that Lordship lane is quite unique in that the parking problems are caused by a combination of commuter parking, people using the lane and multi-vehicle ownership and the CPZ solution the council is suggesting cannot address all of those factors without detrimental harm to the hubs of our community.

And if not, why are "they" having another consultation? Because you got the answer wrong (cf 'People's Vote') Spot on! And because they have had time to add double yellows everywhere to make parking even worse to help justify their stance. Just remember, the CPZ is not for our benefit but theirs......

Galileo, it is a turn of phrase.... As I said previously I used to live on Chesterfield Grove and am well aware of the challenges of finding a space near to my home but never did I drive around for 20 minutes trying to find one. That reads like another council claim! A CPZ is a tax and per ali2007s comments above yours perhaps we should heed the warnings of those who have lived through it and ponder what people not bothering to drive to the Lane will mean. Interestingly to ali2007's point on traffic wardens the council is promising more enforcement in their documentation per the below: "Enforcement of short stay bays will be improved, as visitors will need to register for pay-byphone, and would therefore ensure a higher turnover of short-stay visitors" So more tickets for the slightest indiscretion.... If you want to put your parking convenience before the good of your thriving local community so be it but there are many of us who think the fabric of Lordship Lane and East Dulwich is worth protecting.

I think Tash B is suggesting people should park on the other side of Barry Road along Goodrich Road and then walk to the clinic. But I think Tash B is missing the point that people visiting the clinic often are unable to walk any distance at all which is why they have to visit the clinic in the first place. Same with ESPH that does a lot of rehab for patients from various hospitals in the area. Hopefully now people are starting to realise how much of a negative impact these plans will have on our area and our community and will change their minds about whether they are getting excited about "being able to park in front of my house"!

Being able to find a parking space within a short walk of your house and being able to find that space in a short space of time. That is the benefit. Yes Worldwiser - that is the benefit to YOU. And Chuckd gets a space less than 5 minutes from their house to the detriment of the people trying to use the leisure centre (you can apply the same thing for the doctors/shops or any other public facility in the area). And the information the council shares on where they have claimed victories with CPZs are in areas that were just commuter parking. In fact, if you speak to anyone in areas around the Walworth Road they will say CPZs have had a massively detrimental impact on the shops in the area. I think a lot of people are asking whether that is a price worth paying just so you don't have to spend 5 minutes looking for a parking space. I used to live on Chesterfield Grove and yes, I used to get frustrated when I couldn't find a parking space, but I was sanguine enough to realise it was the price I paid for living next to such an amazing place as Lordship Lane.

I wonder whether our elected representatives have anything to say on the matter? Apparently, a lot of LL shopkeepers have been trying to contact them to voice their concerns but they are being a bit, ahem, aloof....

Galileo, I feel for you living next to the station and agree that it must be awful but the proposals will not deal with your problem and your sister in law will likely still end-up parking streets away. I don?t know what road you live on but do look at the number of non-resident bays on your road and work out whether if one or two other visitors are in the area, or commuters phoning from wherever they work to pay for parking, whether she will get a space. Also, will the CPZ operate at weekends?