Rockets

No that was the exec from the bus company. The union member who represents bus drivers said in response to the question below (I found a clever AI tool to transcribe it - timestamps included!!!):: Um so so TfL have um made an assessment. They they've stated that uh the bus speeds have been impacted because of Show less 01:02:54 congestion, emergency incidents, demonstrations and mechanical performances of the bus fleet. Um is there anybody here who agrees with that assessment? Um and are there any other issues that TfL have not identified? Yeah, >> I think when I when I look at there's some of the reasons, but a lot of this has been own goals. So when we look at um like you're looking for space for pedestrians, so we've narrowed roads, cyclists. Yeah. Once again, we've narrowed it, you know, and quite often Show less 01:03:31 if you're behind a push bike, you can't overtake it as a bus driver because there just isn't enough room, you know, so you're stuck now at that speed all the way until that cyclist moves. Um so yeah uh it is I think there's quite a lot that needs to be looked at when we we you know because you've got >> prime example is when they've made a lot of these places pedestrian >> personal let's imagine Oxford Street when that if that actually happens where's all that traffic go Show less 01:04:05 >> park lane park lane's never going to move >> you know and these are the things that aren't being thought about which are the knock on events from doing all of this. >> You know, I'm fully behind everyone being safe. But if that means by doing that that actually the service that you're trying to run on other things are now impacted, that's a concern, isn't it? Because eventually you're going to say like they did in the old days, there's too many Show less 01:04:36 buses in London. And here is what the Travel Watch person said (where he address congestion): decline in bus speeds we've obviously heard a little bit from other panelists but from travel watches his perspective what's what's gone wrong if you like. >> Uh thank you. I think it's all all of the things that were mentioned previously not not not just by assembly member Prakari but also from the from the panel members. Um the one bit of gloss I would I I would add uh to all of that is that I think the first thing that was listed was congestion. Um it kind of begs the question what's causing Show less 01:10:37 the congestion. you know that could be increased road traffic um but actually road traffic by and large hasn't been increasing um or it could be something to do with the road space that's available for any given level of traffic which I think takes you into the points that we made made very well which is about you know the incident of road works um having an impact on congestion um and that's important certainly from the point of view of of TfL's response to addressing bus speeds because they Show less 01:11:07 place a lot of emphasis this upon interventions which I'm sure we'll talk about later which are designed to um reduce the impact of of um road works. But it also begs a question about um uh the point that's been made previously about uh space that might previously been available, road space that might have been available for buses not being there um uh now. Um I mean I have struggled to find some good data uh to uh paint a picture as to what has happened in terms of the the number of Show less 01:11:40 bus lane kilometers uh the number of cycle lane uh lanes segregated cycle lanes over this period of time. Um but uh I have some sympathy with the views that have been expressed by my my fellow panelists that there is that there does seem to be something that's been going on with regard to the reallocation of road space which I think is contributing to this factor. I saw a there was a piece from a couple of years ago in the in the in the Times newspaper uh which sought to try and understand what has been going on and it had Show less 01:12:08 identified there are at least 20 roads in the capital uh for example which is a high street just to pick an example so an example in west London um where the bus lane has been removed and and in its place a cycle route has been been put in place um is that having a major impact Londonwide I just don't No, but logic would suggest it's got to be having an impact at least at a local level. And I was intrigued to read the comments reported um very recently last few days from um the former transport Show less commissioner was then Sir Peter now Lord Hendy admitting, "Yeah, I took a lot of road space out that formerly used to be for buses for cycle lanes. I almost certainly uh introduced some cycle lanes which were badly designed and have had an impact on bus speeds." Don't misunderstand me. That's not a reason for not implementing cycle lanes to promote cycling which has many many benefits but it's about how these things are done and making sure they're done better. Just to re go back to my point Show less 01:13:09 about traffic levels are they part of the equation. If you look at the stats, average bus speeds have been in London across London have been declining had had been had declined noticeably in the early part of the last decade and they sort of flatlined with the brief exception of COVID. They flatlined and they've been flatlined. So they they were near or even in the more distant past over 10 miles an hour on average. They are now 9.2 two miles an hour and if anything over the last three years so postcoid they've been getting Show less 01:13:43 marginally worse. Um if you look at what's been happening with car traffic for example in London inner central uh um central inner and outer um broadly speaking it has been gently coming down again with one or two exceptions um and is now currently at a it is lower than the prepandemic level. So simply the volume of carrot by itself doesn't seem to on the face of it explain what's going on with bus speeds which is why I think you need to look at what else is going on in terms of the allocation of Show less 01:14:20 road space capacity and also the management of that road space capacity whether it's road works or things like signals which I'm sure we'll come on to later

@Earl Aelfheah I really don't know as I am not a travel expert (and I am presuming you aren't either) and no, I am not advocating for the removal of cycle lanes. That is up to the experts to determine but what we do know is that these panelists were called due to their expertise. 9 And it is interesting to read what they actually said (BTW does anyone know a good way to transcribe a YouTube video with AI maybe as I think it would be interesting for people to see what they actually said). So... Yes and what was said by the man from the bus company was that the two "big ones" were roadworks (number and nature) and "problems with road space for buses". The exact words form that section from the attendee from the bus company is as follows (he doesn't mention car size BTW!): "There are more challenges now with road space for buses - there are a lot of competing demands for roadspace. Tfl has to make lots of decisions that are very difficult and I will say that and I have a particular view and it is difficult for TFL to allocate road space for all of the competing priorities but there is no doubt having said that there is more of a challenge for the bus network as it is less well protected, there is less capacity, whether it is cycle lanes, some of the LTNs, 20mph or some of the urban realm projects. There are lots and lots of things that within themselves are good and worthy to be doing, I am not saying they are not, but are they having an impact on the bus network? Yes they are." "So that the capacity of the network is less than it was. So in very simple terms when a problem happens, you know it is a breakdown or roadworks or whatever it is, an accident, it will tends to have a bigger impact than it used to over a wider area for longer because the capacity isn't in the network to recover from that problem in the way that it was in the past." So he puts the reduction in capacity in road space for buses to "cycle lanes, some of the LTNs, 20mph and urban realm projects". It will be interesting to see how TFL reacts.

This is the go-to position. But remember the culture war has nothing to do with this sort of behaviour.....the culture war is only being waged by those who are anti-cycling!

There is only one expert from Travel Watch on the panel and I love how you now question whether they are experts or not.....! (One wonders if that might be because they are saying things you are opposed to - it's a bit predictable). Travel Watch compiled a list of recommendations in 2024 and yes, of course, many of the suggestions make perfect sense. But we are talking about their expert opinion during the panel - they did not mention any of the points raised in the report they published in 2024 because the expert panel was about what was slowing buses down not how to speed them up. I am sure that discussion will come later - then I am sure the report you reference will be revisited and scrutinised accordingly whether it is still their best advice.

No @malumbu. That was the expert opinion of a bus union representative called to give his expert opinion on the continuing worsening of bus journey speeds by the London Assembly. What you mean to say it is reporting of expert opinion you don't agree with or like.

@Sue admin had to put more stringent rules in place because things were getting out of hand - not sure if you remember that but they were clear on what was considered acceptable, especially when it came to issues of questioning mental health of other posters.

Yeah I am not sure why @DulvilleRes has played this hand - it seems a little odd. Why? 1. People, quite rightly, flagged that the carbon footprint of paving slabs shipped from India seems at odds with an active travel intervention aiming to reduce pollution. 2. Someone posted that Dulwich Square was hazardous to cyclists as many cyclists had been falling on a potentially slippery surface. 3. Some tried to suggest this was due to bad conditions everywhere and deflect from the potential issue within the Square. Someone even tried to insinuate it was a false post due to a user name that looks like a Twitter troll. 4. Other users (probably with less suspicious user names - in some people's minds) backed up the comments and thanked those local residents who helped other cyclists avoid the same pitfalls. 5. I was trying to understand which part of the Square was slippery as the pedestrian crossing slabs have a much smoother top surface and often look very damp with water sitting on top of them and I can imagine that if it is icy and your front wheel hits that you will lose grip. No-one was able to confirm which part was problematic. 6. @malumbu deemed the slippery surface worthy of joking about. One presumes they were not one of those who fell or got hurt. The joke seemed poorly timed. Now @DulvilleRes you seem to be suggesting the slipperiness of the sandstone used on the Square was a consideration during the selection process. Do you have inside knowledge? Most of us are concerned there might be a problem that is putting cyclists at risk in certain conditions. You seem much less concerned about that and seem more concerned to suggest that this concern is an attempt to attack the council.

What question are you actually trying to get an answer to?

In the context of how you used it, it was clearly meant to be derogatory. You were questioning their mental state were you not? @Administrator has been very clear in the past that such posts are not permitted as a few have ventured down this distateful path before. It would probably be wise to remove it.

I thought this type of language wasn't allowed anymore?

Ha ha - @Earl Aelfheah let me answer the straight question I posed to you: yes, that UoW report did conclude that lower car-use within LTNs that they surveyed was not down to the LTNs! Maybe I am not the one being slippery here! 😉

What it means is that some people are calling for a more pragmatic and balanced approach to London-wide traffic matters. I have made my views very clear on this and, if was not clear before, my personal opinion is that TFL and the Mayor's office have over-indexed on cycling to the neglect of other transport modes in the capital. That after all the hubris to proclaim what a success their transport policies have been that actually the data is starting to show that there are problems. In the last few weeks the London Assembly has called expert witnesses to discuss two key topics: why is TFL missing their walking targets and why are buses running slower than ever before - both concerns which were in a report that TFL and the Mayor's office heralded the 43% increase in cycle sectors since 2019 - which was the main headline of the press releases sent to publicise it.

Do you agree that the last version of the study did conclude that: If you're having trouble finding it you will find it under Summary Discussion within the report. This is the problem when organisations like TFL fund these types of reports - sometimes the research will throw up results you aren't interested in because it doesn't suit the narrative you are trying to land by funding the research in the first place.

@Earl Aelfheah you are sharing a Travel Watch report from November 2024 and linking it a meeting in December 25 the London Assembly called to discuss the continuing downward trends of bus speeds in the report you highlighted the 43% cycle sector growth in published in November 25. The way you have worded the above suggests that Travel Watch submitted that report in response to the meeting the London Assembly called recently. They did not. I am sure they stand by what they said in that report but they did not cite it in relation to the items being discussed during the recent meeting. I think you are conflating the two things and creating a misleading impression. All I think a lot of people are calling for is a more pragmatic approach to London-wide traffic issues - that you have to be careful to balance all modes as there is no point robbing Peter to pay Paul. Perfect timing. Is that the pragmatic approach?

This is why TFL were not invited to give evidence - they are being invited in January - this was the London Assembly taking expert evidence from non-TFL people to determine what their thoughts are. And, as we have set from the outset, issues caused by cycle infrastructure were flagged as one of a number of challenges slowing buses by those experts - no-one said it was the only one. It will be very interesting to see if TFL agree with them. Yes we know you would but I think the key take-away from me from the London Assembly meeting was that there needs to be a level of pragmatism and analysis of the likely impact of doing that - you can't just rob Peter to pay Paul because paying Paul sits better with your ideology (and I actually think this is what is happening at the London-wide level - that TFL has over-indexed on cycling to the cost of other means of transport and it is all now coming to light because data and trends are emerging that need more analysis that cannot be hidden). Now you flag a key issue - there are clearly loading bays there for a reason - what happens if you remove them - what is the council's rationale for having them there? Anyway, based on the bus time analysis put out by the council around the LTNs weren't you (or some of your cohort) arguing that bus times along Lordship Lane had not been impacted? If you remove parking what impact does that have on the traders on Lordship Lane and by making a stretch of road a few hundred metres 24/7 bus lane does that actually make a difference? A lot of people will always jump to the "remove space for cars" as the only solution and it was also very interesting that the chap from Travel Watch suggested there was growing evidence that those bus lanes with the most interventions are some of the worst performing.

It seems Lime and Forest are drinking in the last-chance saloon in Islington.... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5yj6xy7n68o Council puts hire bike operators on 'last warning' Islington Council has said e-bike hire companies Lime and Forest are on their "last warning" to tackle dangerous parking and poor rider behaviour - or face losing permission to operate in the borough.

In your mind maybe, but the conclusion of the report has not has it? It clearly concluded that LTNs were not the drivers of lower car use didn't it? So, you can look at that report and argue until the cows come home about whether it was incomplete, buried, too technical for the general public, no longer funded...blah, blah, blah. It doesn't matter - the point is that the report did not support a narrative TFL would be happy to see made public (TFL basically admits as much in the FoI exchanges) - do you agree with that? I can guarantee you that if the report did say that LTNs do reduce car use TFL would have encouraged UoW to publish it and you would have read all about it in a Peter Walker "exclusive";-). This is the problem with activist research - if the paymaster doesn't like the narrative then they won't put it out and it happens in every industry. The other side of the argument of course is they are using tools available to them to flag the reality of how some organisations and public bodies are hiding things from the public as it doesn't suit their narrative. I think it's known as holding them to account. It's why we have FoI's because so much has been hidden/buried in the past across a wide range of subjects.

Might that also be because the report didn't come to the conclusions UoW and TFL needed it to - the report concluded that LTN's did not actually reduce car use? Like here in an excerpt from the report and the reminder from TFL about everything being FOI'able but that no-one outside of TFL knew about the study (that stuff is smoking gun gold is it not - I mean what else could they possibly mean?): While there is evidence that respondents living in areas with more LTN roads do use a car less frequently, there is only weak evidence that this could be driven by the LTN itself. Once other area- level and infrastructural characteristics are accounted for, there is not a significant effect associated with car use. This suggests that the lower car use in areas with more LTN roads is the result of the other area-level and infrastructural characteristics rather than the LTN.

Hmmm @DulvilleRes - the evidence would suggest otherwise.

I presume you are basing my objection on the basis of my objection to the Dulwich Square debacle? If you are you may want to look back and you will find examples of me championing more space for pedestrians...but you know what they say about the truth and a good story.... Anyway.....enough of me responding to one of your usual attacks....I would challenge you on whether cycling is pretty unbeatable for moving people across the capital on the basis that, in my mind, the large majority of the growth in cycling is not coming from moving people across the capital but a growing number of people doing perfectly walkable journeys on Lime bikes and the likein the centre of London. As a teenager on my first exploratory journeys into London (apologies to my my and dad as they didn't know I was going into town - or the football for that matter!) I would arrive at Charing Cross and jump on the Northern Line to Leicester Square for a night out at what I think was called Buzz Bar (awful bar but great for under-age drinkers!) - until I realised it was quicker to walk that journey. I honestly think a lot of the growth in cycle stages is because people are jumping on Lime bikes to do very short journeys - it's one of the things the Dutch government is concerned about that the proliferation of e-bikes is creating a generation who won't walk or cycle (conventional bicycles) anymore and so are less fit. By the same measure you then agree with the conclusions of the panel that one of the causes of bus delays are the provision of cycle infrastructure? Of course Travel Watch has their recommendations but very interesting that during the expert panel (I believe) it was the man from Travel Watch who said there was increasing thoughts that those bus lanes with the most interventions were some of the worst performing.

To be fair @Earl Aelfheah according to the bus driver union representative on the London Assembly meeting buses are also being delayed/slowed by cyclists in bus lanes too. Now, as I said before, all the the experts agreed that cyclists in bus lanes was needed for cyclist safety but also agreed it was having an impact as a bus can only travel as fast as the slowest cyclist as they cannot safely pass them due to the width of buses. To also be fair I believe, if I remember correctly, that it was also the Travel Watch person who suggested that many think that those routes with the most interventions (he cited bus gates as an example) are some of the worst performing.

@malumbu you need to stop knee-jerking, no-one said "it's all the cyclists fault". The subject matter experts invited to the London Assembly Transport Committee discussing why bus speeds have declined so much said that it was one of the contributing factors, certainly not the only factor and no-one on here has made that claim. But clearly lots of bus journeys are being impacted else the experts would not have claimed that cycle infrastrucutre is one of the contributing factors. Did you watch the YouTube video of the Committee meeting? What are your thoughts on what the assembled experts say in relation to that?

Hmmm, you may have overlooked walking as that performs the best in regard to your metrics.

One of the challenges discussed is the reallocation of spaces dedicated to speed up buses to cycles and this has been identified as one of the causes of slowing of the buses. Congestion is also being caused by the removal of space allocated to all road vehicles. This is why the guy from Travel Watch said vehicular traffic has been consistently dropping during the same period as the slowing of buses has been getting consistently worse. Clearly roadworks are a big issue and the guy from the bus company said this was being temporarily exacerbated by the removal of alternative routes around roadworks.

I know it has always been bad around there during school drop-off and pick-up but has it got worse since the redesign of Hunts Slip?