Frisco

"The original plan was for the East London, City & Peckham Railway to terminate with a station in East Dulwich Road. Next station North would have been Sternhall Lane." Pre or post-Beeching Plan? Pre or post-WW1?

I'd just like to put all of your minds at rest, my puss (Sid) is sitting on my knee purring away at the moment, trying to do his mousemat impression. He's read this thread and has asked me to point out that he may just pop out for some fresh air later, but that he's not looking for any immediate assistance to get home. He also muttered something about 'Cat Watch = Bloody Nanny State and restrictions of cat freedom in ED', and it not being like it was in his day. ;-)

"I thought the East London Line extension was going to carry on through ED to Wimbledon when it was originally planned." No, the original (quite limited) plan was for the East London Line to terminate at ED. There were printed plans showing this, and they were issued at a public meeting about transport improvement options for Southwark in the mid-1990s. This was around the first time that the tramlink from Euston to Peckham was conceived, and there was a meeting held in Camberwell (I believe somewhere near St Giles Church, although I can't recall exactly where). However, I do recall giving the councillor who was chair of regeneration at the time a lift home to his home in Playfield Cresent, via Springers wine bar (I knew him you see). The proposed extension to Wimbledon came later, as did Ken's plan to take the line to Clapham Junction via Denmark Hill. ED lost out quite early in the development plans, but it did feature quite significantly at the beginning. So, no ELL station at ED, and no extension to the tramlink either, but still Peckham feels it's neglected. "Also thought it still could happen in the future if they can get the funding." I don't disagree, and I don't think I suggested it couldn't. "For me the proper regeneration of the area started with Nico Ladenis in the very late '70's or early '80's." I thought you were going to say it started with the laying of the tramlines on Dog Kennel Hill. ;-P "He showed that there was an appetite (no pun intended) for an upmarket restaurant in, what was, a fairly downmarket area. I think after he went other people saw the potential and started to move in." I think he was just following a trend at that time to open very popular restaurants in non-exclusive areas (even downmarket at the time), such as Clapham, Battersea, Victoria, Notting Hill, Maida Vale, etc. etc. Some areas worked, while others didn't work for sometime, if at all. However, not everyone managed the fast-track to Mayfair.

"can't remember when they restarted." If I had to guess, I'd say about 1995, although it could have been one or two years either side of that. It didn't register because I'd been put off train travel by then in the immediate pre-privatisation chaos and disrepair.

"I seem to remember that at one time it was planned that the E London Line would go through ED, but this was later changed to Denmark Hill." In an early plan, the East London Line extension was to terminate at ED, with a siding on the land attached to the builders' merchant next to the station. I don't mind at all not having the Central or Jubilee Lines here.

"Have you been to Wanstead recently? I grew up near there and was pleasantly surprised to see how it had come on. Delightful High Street with shops on one side and largely open on the other side. Lots of pavement cafes and Epping Forest nearby. Numerous dodgy geezas around, several attending Snaresbrook Crown Court, but then there are loads of Sarf London villains in the vicinity of ED." Yes I have been there recently, I was treated to lunch in one of the eateries you describe by a satisfied customer, and I do know it quite well anyway. I've never been as quite as aware of the Sarf London vilains in ED as I am of the Essex influence and brashness I've encountered in Wanstead. Anyway, it's down to personal preference. I can't stand the place and wouldn't live there for a big clock. It does have one thing that ED doesn't have though, the M11 link road running through the middle of it. ED is missing out on that.

"Not necessarily. If councillors had to follow officer recommendations in every case there would be no point in having a committee for more controversial decisions." However, in making their decisions, particularly if it goes counter to the planning officer's advice, councillors should probably be very mindful of local public opinion when they assert their independence of thought and action. Also, I'm not sure that this could be considered a particularly controversial matter.

"Perhaps because it's not true?" Of course I should have specified, particularly for the benefit of the overly literal, that I did mean post-Dr Beeching, but I'm glad you were around then and such an obvious train nerd as to be able to recall such fine detail. Were they steam, and did you copy that from your trainspotting book? I didn't mean to suggest that ED station had never had a Sunday train service, but I do realise that it was possible for pendants to read it that way. However, it certainly was true immediately prior to the period under discussion, unless you're suggesting that the regeneration of ED started in the 1950s. So, for the benefit of the dysfunctionally precise, ED station did not have a Sunday train service when I moved to ED in the mid-1980s, or for a number or years after that, which included the earlier part of the period under discussion here. Other off-peak weekday services were also poor at that time. As, actually, were peak-time services, which is why I stopped using the train in 1991 to commute to Camden. ED station had no public address system (I was told that investment in this kind of technology had been stopped as as result of the other investment required following the determined outcome of the Clapham rail disaster and because of planned denationalisation. There were no boards showing updated arrival/departure times. If London Bridge or outward-bound trains were cancelled the ticket office staff had to walk up the ramp to the outward-bound platform and shout information to waiting passengers. If London bound passengers dared to go down to the ticket office to enquire themselves, if no-one had appeared, they risked missing a train if it appeared when they were doing that. Otherwise, it was a brilliant service. Jeez, some people.

"Architects NEVER recommend the reuse of a beautiful old building. What's the fun for them in that?" I don't know if you've ever been a regular patient or user of Dulwich Hospital as I have, but, in my opinion, its external visual appeal (which I appreciate) is really its only saving grace.

"Gentrification comes after regeneration." I don't agree with this. Gentrification predates regeneration in lots of places e.g. Notting Hill and even parts of Camberwell, where regeneration has never really took place. Also, in terms of ED, it's never really been either regenerated or gentrified, but the demographics of the area have definitely changed as its housing stock and location became more appealing to a broader range of people, for reasons other than direct intervention or regeneration. Certainly nothing approaching the Bellenden model.

"We moved here in 1999 and my uncle who lives in Brixton said it was quite "posh" already." Well it was compared to Brixton, but Brixton always had a much more edgy atmosphere than ED could ever have, and seemed attract people with more money, mainly because house prices were higher, due to having the underground. I suppose it's hard to imagine that ED didn't have a train service on Sundays before the early 1990s, and that off-peak train services were even less frenquent than they are now (believe it or not). "The friend had moved out and up to St John's Wood, then to Highgate, and is now in Wanstead." It may be mobile, but I'm not sure that ending up in Wanstead could be considered upwardly mobile. I'd rather chew my foot off than go to live there. Not that keen on the though of living in St John's Wood or Highgate (too close to Archway) either.

"Can anyone remember if it was anything else between Co-Op and Job Centre?" No, just job centre, I believe. The Co-op was divided into smaller units after it closed, and Winkworths eventually moved into one of them, when they came back to ED after leaving as a result of the late 80s/early 90s house price crash and recession.

"Hmm, trying to work out when the co-op would have closed..." From memory, the Co-op closed around 1988. My own view on the regeneration of ED was that it only got of the ground from the mid-1990s onwards, and it wasn't a particularly gradual change. Previous advances, if they can be called that, stalled with the recession from 1988 onwards. I do recall that one significant factor in changing the perception of ED, and in highlighting its potential, was when the houses and flats at the ED end of Camberwell Grove (previously squatted) were marketed. I remember reading at the time that prospective purchasers then ventured into ED and were surprised by the unspoilt Victorian suburb they discovered, only 11 minutes from London Bridge. Sainsburys may have played a role, but ED's economy in 1992 was pretty flat, just as with most other places, and it certainly wasn't on any list of desirable places to live at that time. However Sainsburys undoubtedly had an effect of the types of shops on LL, which seemed to allow openings for the craft/gift shops there now. I also agree that Blue Mountain (as it was) did play a role in starting up North Cross Road, and from that LL. Also, it's important to remember that the pubs only began to change within the last five or six years. I'm surprised no one had mentioned Springer's wine bar on ED Grove, as that was one of the first places of its kind in ED.

"Surely you cut out the call centre if you email them direct?" Possibly, but not if you telephone, or don't have a computer.

"I'd get onto the Council." Where you'll also have the pleasure of encountering more badly trained staff in their call centre.

"And you can easily walk to Vauxhall where I club quite often and partake in all sorts of substances." Careful there Mo, you might get corrupted! http://www.timeout.com/london/gay/features/3892/London-s_gay_scene_in_crisis.html What is your drug of choice, by the way?

"First there was a big Sainsburys, then the plot about 500 yds away became available (that was suitable for a small supermarket), so Sainsburys bought in order to stop Tescos buying it. Then the plot of the old garage between the two became available so Tescos bought that. It's a war out there." It certainly is, but I just don't understand how they can get away with saturating an areas to keep out the competition. I guess a Sainburys Local has different hours than the big store on the Clapham bus garage site, and because of that is able to stay open longer on Sundays. Oh and there's now the big Tesco at Clapham South, which I've never been in yet.

"I worked in zeitgeist the original gift shop in old town." I've been around a bit, but have been in ED by far the longest now. I lived in Fulham for a couple of years and used to go into the original Zeitgeist in Fulham Road, and then it opened up in Clapham, about the time I went to live in Clapaham South. This was when the Two Brewers was the busiest pub in Clapham High Street and there seemed to be nothing but boarded up shops, junk shops and one shop unit that was a left-wing political party (can't remember which) HQ between there and Clapham North station. So different now, but then so is ED.

"with a huge Sainsbury's AND a Sainsbury's Local" I never quite understood that, it's almost creating local monopoly, and heaven forbid Sainsburys ever think of doing this in ED.

"I can advise that Santa will be at Booteeki, Melbourne Grove, East Dulwich on the second and third weekend of December. This Santa is very good! far better than any other store or Harrods." I saw him last year; I nearly crashed the car as he jumped out of the shop door and waved madly at me. I'll complain to the council if it happens again this year!

"The cowboy project they're working on won't last forever." Which project is it?

Dulwich and West Norwood - Tessa Jowell MP (Labour) Wards include: Coldharbour, Herne Hill, Thurlow Park, Knights Hill, Gipsy Hill. Tessa Jowell MP holds advice sessions on Fridays from 11am to 12.30pm, no appointment needed. Advice sessions in 2007 are as follows: Nettlefold Hall (West Norwood Library) 1-3 Norwood High Street, West Norwood SE27 9JU: 2 November, 7 December Kingswood House (Kingswood Estate) Seeley Drive, Dulwich SE21 8QR: 9 November, 14 December Brixton Advice Centre 167 Railton Road, Herne Hill SE24 0LU: 16 November East Dulwich Community Centre 46-64 Darrell Road, East Dulwich SE22 9NL: 23 November Please note: All venues are wheelchair accessible. There are no advice sessions on Bank Holidays, in the summer break, over the Christmas and New Year period and at certain other times. You can contact Tessa Jowell at any time by writing to: Rt. Hon. Tessa Jowell MP House of Commons London SW1A OAA Tel: 020 7219 3409 Fax: 020 7219 2702 Email: jowellt@parliament.uk Web: www.tessajowell.net

Kford wrote: "And risk assessments, without sounding too Daily Mail, are the kind of safety-first tosh that's making us all a bunch of blame-everyone,-sue-everyone,-never-take-personal-responsibilty dullards." Sorry Kford, you didn't manage not to sound 'too Daily Mail' on this occasion. Monica wrote: "Frisco southwark have a list of risk assessment and we had to follow them to the letter,if i had 10000 to spend on the fair i would have." I'm not sure what you are saying, but my criticism was of Southwark Council, based on my own experience, and I responded to a posting made by someone else, and I was not venting my spleen at anyone actually. Also, I would have been directly affected by access issues had the group I'm involved with participated, as was requested (I was one of the few who were available and prepared to attend), so I was interested to read about the access issue.

"I'm kind of getting tired of people thinking they carry their front room around with them were ever they go: cinemas, shops..." The MFI advertisements are truer to life than you think.

"I would question the whole premise of a hospital on the site." While it may be possible walk to Kings from Dulwich Hospital, the types on facilities planned for the new community hospital are not those that would be provided at a general and teaching hospital like Kings. It could very well contain facilities for recuperation and rehabilitation, with treatments like physiotherapy, which are now mostly provided by the PCT. As I understand it, there's no intention of duplicating the services at Kings, and certainly not acute services.